How would you like to see Grapple changed?

[gothmaugCC]

Honestly I never understood the problem everyone seems to have with 3rd editon grappling. Sure the writeup in the PHB is pretty cumbersome, but read through it once or twice and its pretty clear cut. Once you grasp the basics, everything else is just gravy.

ie.
1) make a touch attack against your target.
2) opposed grapple checks are made (basically a modified strength check)
3) if you win your grappling..if not the target twists away.

on subsequent rounds

1) make more checks to inflict damage or pin your opponent
2) attack with a small weapon (with a small penalty, -2 i think)

and of course casting spells is virtually impossible, as it should be if you cant wiggle your hands or speak.

I know, I know, there are more options and modifiers available, but basic grappling is handled as listed above.

So what changes would I make for 4th edition? Well the penalty for attacking with light weapons should be removed. I still like the opposed grapple check dynamic, the whole BAB + STR + size makes alot of sense to me, so I'd keep that. I think the other change i'd make is on the first round of grappling, I'd allow the player to inflict damage. Currently you spend the entire first round entering the grapple, and can't pull off any manuevers until the following round.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

3.5 Grapple rules leave a lot to be desired (to say the least). They work, but darn are they messy.

Saga's rules, from what I remember, are much more efficent and make a good bit of sense. There are still options for PCs and it's nowhere near as wonky.

I think I never had a real problem with understanding the rules, I just think they aren't really "fair".

Basically, grapple a small character or a wizard, and he lost. The only thing rescuing him now is either a Rogue that Sneak Attacks the Grappler to death, or a good Concentration Check for a Dimension Door / Teleport.

I really don't like that. The bonuses for large creatures simply become to high, and the penalties for smaller creatures are to harsh. Large creatures have a high strength and get a grapple bonus Small Creatures have a low strength and a grapple penalty. Double Reward / Double Punishment. That is rarely a good sign.

I think the effects could also be standardized:
Being Grappled could be just like being Entangled (plus limited movement). If you want additional complexity, also eliminate reach, and add a DC modifier to Concentration Checks for casting on the defensive.
Being pinned is just like being entangled and prone. If you want, also add "mute" as condition.

It's still not really simple (compared to trip or bullrush), but that's probably because Grapple is there to do too much.

 

[Celebrim]

I think I never had a real problem with understanding the rules, I just think they aren't really "fair".

I think that they are fair, I'm just not sure that they are 'fun', which is what I think you are really complaining about.

Basically, grapple a small character or a wizard, and he lost.

That's pretty much my experience of the real world as well. Perhaps you should spend more time wrestling. Try wrestling someone alot heavier or stronger than you. Then think about how in D&D terms, that person is NOT alot heavier or stronger than you. In D&D, you regularly encounter things bigger than elephants. It's not surprising if when they grab ahold of you, they can control you like a rag doll.

Cinema tends to avoid grappling as much as possible because it doesn't look good on screen. For example, Pro 'wrestlers' almost never actually grapple anymore, especially in this post WWF world. Movie fighters do alot of straight punches and spinning kicks, but they never seem to do much actual grappling. However, if you look at something like MMA where people are allowed to choose either striking tactics or grappling tactics, you get an idea just how hugely effective grappling can be.

 

[mmadsen]

My big beef with grapple is that in order to attack in a grapple, you must succeed a grapple check. 9 times out of 10, Its better to try to escape then attack.

That's certainly realistic -- for an unarmed man, at least. Grappling a guy with a knife should be really, really scary -- which it isn't in D&D.

 

[Celebrim]

That's certainly realistic -- for an unarmed man, at least. Grappling a guy with a knife should be really, really scary -- which it isn't in D&D.

Agreed. The unrealistic part of grappling in D&D isn't necessarily what happens after the grab, but how little of a penalty that AoO can be.

 

[mmadsen]

I think I never had a real problem with understanding the rules, I just think they aren't really "fair".

Basically, grapple a small character or a wizard, and he lost.

That seems perfectly reasonable to me. A handful of hearty peasants should be able to tackle a powerful wizard -- if they've got the nerve.

And a hobbit who gets grabbed by a cave troll should lose, but the hobbit would likely dive between the charging cave troll's legs, etc. before it came to that -- but D&D's touch-attack mechanics don't go far enough to make that a good bet.

 

[Baby Samurai]

However, if you look at something like MMA where people are allowed to choose either striking tactics or grappling tactics, you get an idea just how hugely effective grappling can be.

It's true; a graceful martial artist will enter, but usually have his ass handed to him by the giant butt ugly white dude who takes it to the ground.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think that they are fair, I'm just not sure that they are 'fun', which is what I think you are really complaining about.



That's pretty much my experience of the real world as well. Perhaps you should spend more time wrestling. Try wrestling someone alot heavier or stronger than you. Then think about how in D&D terms, that person is NOT alot heavier or stronger than you. In D&D, you regularly encounter things bigger than elephants. It's not surprising if when they grab ahold of you, they can control you like a rag doll.

Well, that might be true. But that doesn't mean that is good for a game to emulate that, because this leads to introducing a "winner" tactic. That's not something a balanced combat system should offer, in my view.

If Grappling is really that effective in real life, than initiating it and specifically the associated penalties shouldn't bypass hit points (just like stabbing someone with a sword doesn't, which is pretty harmful in real life, too). I admit, it's not entirely bypassing hit points - it still deals damage, but the "you're effective out of the fight affect while slowly getting killed" should probably be removed. So attacking with weapons without penalties, free drawing of weapons, and casting spells (albeit defensively) should be allowed... Basically, the only thing it then does it removing your mobility, reducing the targets you can attack and giving the stronger one an easier time hurting you. Seems still pretty powerful to me.

 

[Celebrim]

It's true; a graceful martial artist will enter, but usually have his ass handed to him by the giant butt ugly white dude who takes it to the ground.

It doesn't even have to go to the ground. I remember watching this guy who was a champion tiakwando fighter get in the ring with this 350 lb used car salesman, and the used car salesman just bullrushed him up against the fence, pinned him with his bellly, and proceeded to hammer fist the poor kid's face like it was a bongo drum. Not very elegant, but very effective (and very brutal). Also, fairly typical of what happened in the early days to martial artists from a background that didn't emphasis grappling.

 

[Celebrim]

Well, that might be true. But that doesn't mean that is good for a game to emulate that, because this leads to introducing a "winner" tactic. That's not something a balanced combat system should offer, in my view.

I agree that it tends to produce a winner in the way that other less 'realistic' parts of the system don't, but I don't agree that there is a relatively easy solution to this. Real life, without time limits, grappling is often alot like that. Once it goes to the mat, escape can become effectively impossible for the inferior grappler, and then its just a matter of time.

I do think that it can be made more interesting, but a more interesting resolution system might get too complicated.

A more realistic solution would be to consider that its difficult to do everything at once when grappling. It's hard to stop someone from drawing a weapon (or casting a spell), and keep a hold of them, and twist/pound/squeeze them sufficiently that you rip things all at the same time. And its much easier to actively keep ahold of someone, than it is to stop them from stopping you from twisting them like a pretzel - especially if they have any combat skill at all. So a more realistic system might make certain grappling checks harder than others, and penalize you for having made more than one grappling check since your last action, so that full control of the situation is much harder.

The real drawback of grappling is that it isn't necessarily very effective when facing multiple foes. And I think that the current system models that pretty well. Perhaps wizards should keep fighters and rogues close at hand.