D&D 4E How would you re-envision Planescape with 4e?

[Lorthanoth]

Planescape was so tied to the Great Wheel view of cosmology it would be tricky to import wholesale.

Perhaps Sigil exists in the Astral Sea, with or without the Outlands (although the cosmic symbolism of the spire and torus was cool), the Devils seek even more strongly now to breach it's portals as they are imprisoned in Hell. The demons would love to use it to punge everything into utter chaos. That's your new Blood War. Not some weird "I say Lawful, you say Chaotic" alignment war, but a war with a definite prize; a city that can allow one to either escape and eventually rule the multiverse (devils) or to invade and make everywhere the Abyss (demons).

 

[Horacio]

Bring Tony DiTerlizzi back for even just one new illustration (but hopefully more), since by the time this book comes out, the movie adaptation of his children's fantasy books, The Spiderwick Chronicles will have already come out.
.

That is one of my gaming dreams, a new version of Planescape, adapted for 4e but keeping the essence of the original, and illustrated by DiTerlizzi.

 

[ThirdWizard]

It never occurred to me to change Planescape to take into consideration the new fluff, and quite frankly I think it would be a huge mistake to do so. The Great Wheel is, essentially, Planescape's terrain. It would be like taking Dark Sun and deciding, "You know what, halflings are now river dwellers, so we need to add rivers everywhere for them to live on!" The fluff is Planescape. You might love the Astral Sea and the Elemental Chaos, but it just isn't Planescape's terrain.

 

[Steely Dan]

It never occurred to me to change Planescape to take into consideration the new fluff, and quite frankly I think it would be a huge mistake to do so.

Agreed, actually, there is no need to re-envision any of these worlds (athas, mystara, cerilia, oerth etc) for 4th Ed, IMO, only to implement 4th Ed mechanics.

 

[ruemere]

[...]So, the question is, how should Planescape embrace this?

The real question first, is what is Planescape really about? [...]

Here is the heart of Planescape in bulletpoint:

• The Lady of Pain

• Sigil

• Factions

• Wars of Ideals, Faiths and Philosophies

• The Blood War

• Planar Adventure from 1st level

• The look and feel of that great art, story and even the chant

• Playing in the realms of outsiders and gods

• Unlocking the secrets of planar reality

• Planar Gates, Keys, Puzzles, Secrets

• Planar Magic (where spells work different based on where you are)

[...]

Rising to the challenge, I'd like to say that stuff posted below represents only personal musings on the subject, it's neither definite nor exhaustive. Merely, some creative thinking summarized.


The real question first, is what is Planescape really about?

Planescape is an amalgam of stolen bits of other universers and original creations made by Planescape rulers (note the plural, please). The rulers of Planescape are not divine (read below: Planar Gates, Keys, Puzzles, Secrets), so their creations are limited, definite, sometimes limited in duration and often flawed (unstable, mutable, changeable).

Existence of Planescale depends on acquiring new pieces of other universes, maintaining state of dynamic balance of existing structures and development of new creations.

Central concept: any mortal living being is a source of creative force. This force is channeled by archetypes into actual creations, though acts of creation are usually subtle. This force is also not divine, therefore creations are not perfect. Planescape universe is one of such creations. Thoroughly non-divine in origin, flawed by design, persisting because of constant influx of the force.

Planescape universe is adverse to stasis and stagnation, permanency is not possible. Imperfection, hunger, avarice, curiosity, conflict, invention, progress and robust vitality are major elements of the setting.

All beings of all universes are roughly divided into the following categories: divine, mortals and created/artificial/construct/soulless/undead.
Divine beings are both divinities, divine servants and direct divine creations - they are characterized by certain element of perfection. As such, they may feel certain discomfort in presence of less gifted beings. Demons, devils are also members of divine category. Divine beings usually exist by providing focal archetypes for creative force.
Mortals are all living beings capable of growth, usually of limited lifespan. They are the prime source of creative force.
The last category contains all beings incapable of growth or generation of creative force.


The Lady of Pain

Lady of Pain is an avatar of the universe. Its functions are simple: maintaining stability of the universe by providing central archetype of divine-type, removing external and internal threats to stability. She is also part of the process of acquiring new bits of other universes.

She may have been built upon a personality or a soul of a non-divine being, however, since then, she has evolved into manifestation of her universe.

Servitors (or created) of Lady of Pain are beings created by her and rulers of Sigil. Usually manifested as members of Dabus race. They are freewilled, yet their mindsets are usually too alien to communicate with other beings. Their lives, while dedicated to serve Sigil, are not necessarily limited to work for the Lady.

Rulers of Planescape are actually another creation of their universe. Since the universe lacks perfect (divine) beings, any being native to Sigil and unrestrained by limitation of mortal perceptions may influence the shape of the world. That's why the rulers are collective of the dreaming part of population. In other words, any being bearing Sigil Stigmata and sleeping within boundaries of the city may contribute to eternal development of their world. Changes conflict and cancel each other, so relatively strongly populated areas are the least prone to reshaping. Also, any adjustments happen usually slowly and gradually.
Finally, strong ideas, revolutionary concepts may infect larger parts of populace leading to faster changes or interventions of the Lady.


Sigil

The central factory where the acts of creation of Planescape universe take place. An archetype of order rising out of chaos, it is a chaotic urban sprawl of random buildings. Its existence is ensured by will and perception of its rulers.

Those who are born, created or who reside in Sigil for extended periods of time receive Sigil Stigmata.
Sigil Stigmata is a spiritual phenomenon which allows one to find it easier to find or open portals leading to Sigil.
Bearers of Sigil Stigmata find themselves subject to Planar magic limitations even if outside of Sigil.
Sigil Stigmata disappear if one spends sufficiently long period residing on the same plane.
More on Sigil Stigmata - below.


Factions

Acts of creation happen on many different levels. Evolution of society, development of organizations and sects is part of them. Factions are usually assembled from ideas imported from other universes. They are also undergoing constant changes through conflicts, reforms or divisions.

Current state of affairs (after Faction War) is just the result of this rule. New Factions will emerge, old Factions will change and adapt or perish.


Wars of Ideals, Faiths and Philosophies

Any archetype strong enough to become a focus point for creative force will manifest as a new creation. It may be an organization, philosophy, faith or a simple uprising.


The Blood War

No changes.


Planar Adventure from 1st level

Since it is in the best interest of Planescape universe to maintain numerous connections to other universes, planar adventurers are somewhat supported by Sigil itself - the most frequently used portals remain stable (and easily open).
Those who often bring something in, may find themselves gifted in some random way upon returning. Frequency of such minor gifts depends on frequency of travelling and character experience (lower level characters benefit more often than higher level characters).
Those who leave are expected to leave some parting gift or may risk losing resources upon entering portals.
Those who bear Sigil Stigmata find it easier to discover and to enter portals.


The look and feel of that great art, story and even the chant

No changes.


Playing in the realms of outsiders and gods

Planar adventurers from Sigil essentially provide means for importing valuable materials, concepts, new archetypes. The higher divine beings feel often unease in the presence of visitors from Sigil - bearers of Sigil Stigmata often cause divine beings to experience discomfort or even weakness. Also, Sigil Stigmata bearers often bypass limitations imposed by certain magic effects (or speed up their expiration).
That's why visitors from Sigil are often nomadic by nature, travelling in groups and, while sometimes welcome, seldom build close ties with natives of other universes.

Since Sigil literally feeds on other universes through bearers of Sigil Stigmata (and through Portal - see below), any permanent residences outside of Planescape by Sigil residents are difficult to maintain.


Unlocking the secrets of planar reality

Beyond the scope of this post.


Planar Gates, Keys, Puzzles, Secrets

Planar gateways, keys and puzzles and Sigil Stigmata provide sustenance to Planescape universe. As such, Planescape relation to other worlds could be considered a parasitic one.

It must be strongly stressed that Lady of Pain must control inflow of external material, since prevalence of elements from single universe may lead to dominance of that universe and subsequent destabilization of her world. That's why the most prominent portals may suddenly collapse or become inaccessible for some time.


Planar Magic

Generally, any type of magic relying on anchoring in reality (transportation, for example) is likely to fail. Portals to other worlds function normally, albeit exiting through one without leaving parting gift may result in unpredictable results. Portals to Sigil work normally unless used too often.
Any ranged magic effects do not work unless the caster has a line of sight to target.
Any recipients of magic effects with ranged qualities find those effected inactive once the line of sight between caster and recipient is obstructed.
Any permanent magic effects (unless being a part of a magic item powers) are shortened in duration to one year, though prolonging them requires expenditures of 1/100 of original costs.
Any permanent magic items left unattended or unused will become dormant after a period of caster level years. Dormant magic items may regain their powers once certain rituals are performed. Dormant magic items emit faint magic aura, detectible only from distance of one meter.
Artifact and divine powers function undiminished, however their usage within boundaries of Sigil may attract attention of Lady of Pain or her servitors.

----



That's all.

regards,
Ruemere

PS. Edit: formatting.

 

[Daniel D. Fox]

I would have the Lady of Pain cast from the spire into the Outlands (and made mortal), and have Sigil travel throughout the planes, "landing" in whatever representative plane by the most powerful faction in the city. The City of Doors would foreever more bar her or any god from entering through the portals.

For instance, the Doomguard faction if they rose to power by will of belief would have Sigil floating over Pandemonium, whereas the Athar would "will" it into the Astral.

 

[Dausuul]

I would reduce the "everybody hangs out here" aspect of the setting. I've always thought it was idiotic to have a setting where demons and angels would rub elbows. These are beings that are deeply and fundamentally opposed; if a balor runs into a solar, they aren't going to content themselves with just giving each other dirty looks. They'll draw their swords and charge one another, and to hell with the consequences.

IMO, you shouldn't run into powerful outsiders in Sigil, and even lesser outsiders should be unusual encounters. Instead, the emphasis should be on the human and quasi-human inhabitants of the city and their weird philosophies. I envision Sigil as an anarchic city ruled by warring gangs, each with its own turf and its own peculiar slant on the nature of existence. Travel from one part of the city to another will require dealing with each gang on your proposed route.

No more Lady of Pain; gods simply can't enter Sigil, and outsiders require a constant exertion of magic to maintain their presence, with more powerful outsiders requiring greater expenditures. (This might lead to some interesting plots, as demon lords and archdevils try to muster enough mystical power to send an army through the city.)

I would also play up the nature of Sigil as the City of Doors; a place where a door might lead anywhere, if you only know how to open it. Instead of the silly "crush a spider egg on your way through" tricks, I'd focus on knowing a secret, answering a riddle, or making some kind of personal offering. Doors should be central to the politics of the city--every power play, every gang war, every intrigue, should have a door at its heart.

At the same time, I'd remove access to spells like plane shift and teleport. Stuff like that defeats the point of having a City of Doors to begin with.

As far as the planes go... probably dismantle the Great Wheel but keep most of its component planes. Each plane would be accessible mainly through Sigil, reinforcing its status as the crossroads of existence. Otherwise, they'd be more or less as they are now.

Finally, I'd discard the silly-sounding argot of Sigil. That sort of thing is very hard to pull off, and I never felt Planescape succeeded. People in Sigil should talk like people anywhere else.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The heart of PS is really Sigil. That's where the factions sit, that's where the mortals live, that's PS's home.

PS also needs the alignments pretty strongly, because playing with them is something the setting revels in. Philosophical gameplay is enhanced when your ideas change the world, and the cosmic forces of Good, Evil, Law, Chaos, and Neutrality all rubbing up against each other is good.

PS doesn't need much of a specific arrangement of planes. Sigil can still serve as the gateway between the Shadowfell, the Feywild, the Elemental Chaos, and the hundreds of thousands of other planes that exist that mortals on the material plane aren't even aware of (Arborea, Pandemonium, Celstia, etc).

PS does need a richness and variety of extraplanar creatures -- Planetouched creatures are the setting's elves and dwarves and halflings, and the more sources we give them to draw on the richer it is. There's a difference between a devil and a baatezu and a yugoloth, just as there's a difference between a demon and a tanar'ri and a gherelth, and an angel and a deva and an archon, and an eladrin and an animal lord and a slaadi, and an inevitable and a modron and a formian.

So what does a 4e PS setting need?

#1 - Sigil. This includes the portals, the factions, the Lady of Pain, the cant (though we probably don't need it in the rules themselves). This is the center of the game, the home base for the campaign, the place where the heroes and villains live and work. This is probably where a lot of low-level adventure goes on. The factions are especially key, here. Everyone's a preacher, everyone's a philosopher, from the richest Taker to the bartender who serves your drink as part of his Destiny.

#2 - Alignments are strongly held by most creatures. Because a lot of 'em are MADE of alignments.

#3 - A diversity of planar species that come from a variety of planes (not all of which are mentioned in the Core). I wouldn't mind freeing up a bit of this to include major players that don't really fit in the Great Wheel. Now the Feywilid and the Eladrin (4e eladrin) can have a major role, as can the Shadowfell and the various nasties from there, and maybe some critters from the Plane of Mirrors, or somesuch. Because the planes will be your playground, not all of them need to be hospitable (just like not all dungeons are easily survivable), and not all of them need to contain much diversity (it's okay if Bytopia is mostly uninteresting, so are the backwater podunks on a given material plane!). This should include gods, and it shouldn't be limited to just D&D gods. Without the Great Wheel being so strong an influence, you can actually adventure in Olympus and on Yggdrasil without the mental exercise of fitting it into the cosmology. It doesn't fit. It's just one plane amongst many. Asgard doesn't need to be part of Ysgard, it can be it's own place.

The biggest project would be #3.

I wouldn't mind advancing the timeline to include a few new factions, ditch a few that fell out during the Faction War (Change, like they say, is inevitable), keep them around as small sects or occasional threats without going into great detail on them, synthesize many of those that are really similar, focus on bigger themes, get a bit more MagiTech into the mix (maybe make it a bit more Victorian in flavor, embrace some of the Steampunk trappings).

This is what I'm doing for my first 4e campaign, anyway. I'm not married to the history or the specific events or the specific NPC's about PS.

 

[Quickleaf]

I envision 4e Planescape as satirical/darkly humorous political-philosophical bangsian fantasy. I would use the Faction War as an excuse to redesign the setting - boil it down to its core then work from there.

It's satire because it turns fantasy and fairytale tropes on their head. E.g. A tribe of trolls enjoy reading history (knowledge is power) and are afraid of leaving from under the bridge which guards the portal the PCs need to access.

It's philosophical because, while Good & Evil exist, the focus of the campaign is on moral dilemmas - the hard questions that don't have a clear right answer. Instead, each course of action has different rewards/drawbacks. E.g. What is an effective prison system? Who belongs there? How is it funded & managed? Is the justice retributive or restorative?

It's political because everyone, even the noblest paladin or celestial proxy, has a point of view, a vested interested, a "rub". There are many factions (more than originally presented), each with a distinct political goal and sphere of power. Allegiance ranks could be used (as in Living Kalamar) for faction membership, and there'd be rules for politics (as in Atlas Games "Dynasties & Demagogues").

It's bangsian fantasy because the journeys to the otherworlds are paralleled by inner journeys of the PCs into the underworld. In some ways Sigil could take on aspects of the Ghostwalk setting as a debarkation point for Orpheus type adventures like seeking counsel with a dead ancestor or bartering for a dead friend's life.

Some ideas...

The Lady of Pain: Leave her a mystery, and refer to her by other names "Dread Majesty", "Her Serenity", "The Bladed Queen" depending on the perspective of the speaker.

City of Doors: The City of Doors is the centerpiece, an urban mixing of mythologies, with the potential to access any place in existence to the one who knows the portal key. Introduce Throne Wardens as seats of political power (1 per ward) & actual magical thrones which allow holder awareness of portal activity in their ward. Naturally these thrones are coveted by the factions. Emphasize the mixing of mythologies...the universal/archetypal truth behind mythologies (E.g. the Athena-type goddesses ally

Portals: Make them complex challenges like traps that require foreplanning/research and involve significant risk. Also include some kind of mystical sigil identification system for portals (hinting at portal's functioning/history/destination/key), but the mystical language is yet to be fully decoded. Uncoding the "sigils" could be a major goal of factions and invaders, a la Stargate. Portals function uniquely according to destination, so Feywild portals are cyclical and appear at certain times.

War of Ideas: Introduce core setting dilemmas (E.g. (a) Sigil's portals, (b) life after death, (c) nature of magic, (d) redemption of evil, (e) imprisonment of Lady of Pain). Introduce a point system (action points?) for making an action taken from committed belief have far-reaching impacts. Also provide in-depth information & mechanics on how territory changes "alignment/planar location" according to belief.

Factions: Re-do the factions as tightly defined politically active mystery cults/secret societies with levels of initiation. For example, instead of Dustmen how about a psychopomps faction which concerns itself with guiding souls to resting place? Give each faction a coherent write-up with specific goals concerning the core setting dilemmas.

Planar Adventures: Heroic tier Planescape - Save or defeat a faction/Unlock or defend a portal/Champion an issue/Instate or usurp a Throne Warden. Paragon tier Planescape - Save Sigil/Uncover a diabolic conspiracy/Develop a new philosophy/Win a political victory. Epic tier Planescape - Resolve a core setting dilemma/Save the Multiverse/Attain personal enlightenment, redemption, or liberation.

 

[IanB]

Obviously, the Great Wheel and much of D&D's planar cosmology is being changed. So, the question is, how should Planescape embrace this?

The answer is simple: it shouldn't.

There is no reason every campaign setting has to share or use the default cosmology. Even in 3.5, FR is different from Eberron which is different from the Great Wheel. The Planescape version of the Great Wheel absolutely must stay to maintain the integrity of the setting, IMO. It is too deep into the roots of the entire thing.