D&D General How would you redo 4e?

  • Bounded Accuracy. I would remove the +half level to everything and the +3 bonus to skill proficiency would be remade in a proficiency bonus linked to level (as 5e)

Agree 100%. Reduce the numbers creep. Keep the number of conditional modifiers and effects from stacking so calculating what your modifier was each round wasn't so burdensome.

I'd also remove a lot of the classes to reduce the "same as this class, but divine or arcane" repetition.

One thing I might do that would be pretty radical (but really, 4e is always going to be a radical diversion) is cap the max level at 10th.
 

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I don't know if I should be messing with this, but here goes!

1. Don't just call it "D&D".
I've always considered 4e to be the purest, most honest interpretation of D&D, delivering on many of the failed promises implied from previous editions. In fact, I think it is more deserving of both brand and title than any others. But I believe it is more important that it stands out as a variant of the game rather than trying to own it.

4th Edition stands out because it is so radically different from everything else in the game's history. It is a derivative of the original game, so it deserves to have the name and brand attached to it. But in many ways, it clings closer to the core values and ideas of the game experience many fans have dreamed of since they first started playing. Player classes that were equally balanced and useful in every pillar. DM tools and guidelines that made monster and encounter building easy. A world cosmology that provided a place and reason for everything in the game to exist.

Despite all this, it is not what I consider "original D&D". This is new and different. It is another way to play the same game. It's an alternative, which makes it a choice. But surely there is room for more choices, right? So that's where I would start.

2. Essentials or Core: Pick a lane!
For those of you not in the know, Essentials was a last-ditch attempt to win over non-4e fans while simultaneously updating the 4e rules with better, more consistent rules and changes. This is where a lot of the inner 4e-fan base gets divided (as if the edition needed to be more divisive!) because, while the monster formats and rule updates were welcomed, the Essentials classes went against a lot of the core ideas and philosophies that a lot of 4e fans actually liked.

Personally, I liked both approaches, but I would prefer a more consistent approach. Either stick with the core AEDU approach, or expand the more "classic D&D" feel with the Essentials approach. Or redesign for something in between. Just make it consistent and don't tell me it's all compatible! My OCD says so!

3. Cut down the bloat.
I can't overstate this enough. There comes a point when there are just too many options, too many supplements, too many hit points, too many bonuses stacked, too many conditions, and too many decisions. Give me a core game that works effortlessly with as few books as possible. Create supplements that are entirely optional but will expand the whole game, not just parts of it (i.e. a book for Heroic characters options instead of one for Divine, one for Martial, etc.)

And for goodness’ sake, reign in the number (and range!) of modifiers in play. Make hit points reasonable so that every combat doesn't slog for over an hour. Less math and more play, please.

4. Digital (VTT) support/Open License support.
I think this goes without saying (and I'm certain it was implied in the OP), but it's something we take for granted nowadays. 4e was the one edition that was (and continues to be) excluded from receiving a decent amount of support outside the company that owns it. Enough said.

5. Endanger those Sacred Cows.
Do what works best for the game in order for it to work better. Instead of trying to appease the gatekeepers and grognards with a product that they won't be interested in any way, do not be chained to antiquated and outdated ideas of game design and philosophies. Being tethered to the original concepts and ideas of others subverts innovation.

Healing surges, for example, was a radical idea that worked for 4e, and kinda snuck in a little with 5e (using hit dice to heal). But it was underutilized, IMO. It could've been used to charge (or recharge) certain powers or abilities. Of course, the name would need to be changed (Heroic Surges?), but there was more potential that could be explored.

Maybe it's just me, but that's where I would start.
 

I became a big 4e fan but I am more on the essentials end of things and it is a game I did very little DMing of, mostly player end stuff. Most of my 4e DM end stuff was adapting 4e concepts to Pathfinder 1e and 5e.

I really like DMG 2 inherent bonuses to reduce magical item treadmilling for baseline character math.

I really like essentials style defender auras that are easier to implement at the table than tracking individual marking on individuals.

A house rule we used that worked well for us was to allow trading in a higher level daily to have a lower level daily be an encounter recharge, and to trade in a higher level encounter to allow a lower level encounter to be at will.

This tamped down novaing and allowed more lower level powers to be used in each fight as options. The party power level in a fight was much less swingy, making things easier for the DM to gauge, and fights were tactically a bit more interesting and dynamic in my experience.

Encounter based healing surges instead of daily based ones worked well for pacing too.

I am a big fan of encounter paradigms rather than daily ones. :)
 

Some more after killing essentials in its crib:

Remove Dailies. Let it be a thing for sad wizards to have as their special thing, but everything else gets to be encounter based like god intended.

Less esoteric names. After the community lost it's bowels over the Golden Wyvern school it was clear that evocative naming needs to be kept on a high shelf lest they hurt themselves.

No alignment. At all. No mention, not revised scale or definitions. Just pull the trigger already.

Good magic items. Full Stop. 4e, for all of its good was terrible with magic items. Ground up redesign. The scaling nature of them was good, but the execution was awful.

Notations just everywhere explaining game rules are not physics and no, the fireball isn't a cube, stop being pedantic over a dice and board game.

Employ moderators on the Wizards.com forums. Holy crap, some of the mistruths and exaggerations we still see today exist in large part due to how the Wiz_O's let the jilted community members run wild nd free with the rumor mill and develop attack slogans right there on the forum.

3e's skill system. Way more granular, ore customizations is always good. Also 3e's feats except the ones that remove a -4 penalty for something because that concept needed to go.
 

Whenever this topic comes up I like to summon @Myrhdraak you already created a wonderful 4.5e system. I can't remember if they ever posted it publicly, but could do so in short order if WotC released a 4e SRD.

Other than that I see a lot of good ideas here.
You can find my old musings here:

It plays really well. I have spent the last 2 years implementing many of the features into a 4.5 Edition macro framework for Map Tools that really speeds up game play. It has been a real effort, but I am getting there. Will start to share once I am ready.
/Myrhdraak
 



3. Cut down the bloat.
I can't overstate this enough. There comes a point when there are just too many options, too many supplements, too many hit points, too many bonuses stacked, too many conditions, and too many decisions. Give me a core game that works effortlessly with as few books as possible. Create supplements that are entirely optional but will expand the whole game, not just parts of it (i.e. a book for Heroic characters options instead of one for Divine, one for Martial, etc.)

And for goodness’ sake, reign in the number (and range!) of modifiers in play. Make hit points reasonable so that every combat doesn't slog for over an hour. Less math and more play, please.

All of this. 4e rapidly bloated up with options and powers so that it could be very difficult to keep track of what did what and what interfaced with what. At any given moment in combat, figuring out what a power did, what auras and effects were in play could grind play to a halt.
 

Some more after killing essentials in its crib:

Remove Dailies. Let it be a thing for sad wizards to have as their special thing, but everything else gets to be encounter based like god intended.

Less esoteric names. After the community lost it's bowels over the Golden Wyvern school it was clear that evocative naming needs to be kept on a high shelf lest they hurt themselves.

No alignment. At all. No mention, not revised scale or definitions. Just pull the trigger already.

Good magic items. Full Stop. 4e, for all of its good was terrible with magic items. Ground up redesign. The scaling nature of them was good, but the execution was awful.

Notations just everywhere explaining game rules are not physics and no, the fireball isn't a cube, stop being pedantic over a dice and board game.

Employ moderators on the Wizards.com forums. Holy crap, some of the mistruths and exaggerations we still see today exist in large part due to how the Wiz_O's let the jilted community members run wild nd free with the rumor mill and develop attack slogans right there on the forum.

3e's skill system. Way more granular, ore customizations is always good. Also 3e's feats except the ones that remove a -4 penalty for something because that concept needed to go.
Ok, I hear this one about magic items a lot; it wasn't that good items didn't exist, they totally did. The issues were, players naturally valued "increase my numbahs" effects over other effects, and many of the really good effects, like Winged Boots, were solidly in Epic Tier. I can tell you that my highest level 4e character had a lot of great items, like Ghost-Grinding Powder, Wall Walkers, a helmet that gave him a free turn of ignoring stun/daze, a portable hole, a magic knife that creates an extradimensional space you can long rest in (which I used to infiltrate a githyanki fortress), etc.. But for the most part, I was the only player in my group willing to spend cash on utility items rather than just save up for the bigger better plus. The Fighter didn't merely want a +5 weapon, he wanted one that gave him extra critical damage, for example. The Sorcerer was gung ho about getting anything that could refresh an encounter power so they could use Demon-Soul Bolts more often. The Cleric wanted anything that gave them more healing power. The only other utility item I remember was the Paladin's Ebony Fly, and he rarely used it after he got knocked off of it while fighting a dragon.
 

Tastes vary. :)

I loved that 4e fireballs were non-euclidean square-spheres that were narratively spheres but efficiently cubes on the grid for ease of tabletop experience so were a bit lovecraftian in effect on a meta level. Firecubes FTW!
I too miss my firecubes. No fuss, no muss, no "well the fireball only enters a fraction of this square so it has no effect on you".
 

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