How would you run this?

[LostSoul]

Neat encounter. Good synergy of NPC abilities (halflings throwing, Hiding, humans bull-rushing). Actually I'd use half-orcs instead of humans for the extra Str. Oh! Half-orc barbarians with the elite array, for 17 Str, or 21 raging. Bull rush will be better. (Total check there is +5, and if they can charge, +7. If you can get Enlarge Person cast on one of them, that's another +4.)

Surprise mechaincs:
(correct me if I'm wrong)

The fighters can't get a surprise round, since the PCs are aware of them.

The ninjas can, if they make Hide checks vs. PC's spot checks; however, their surprise round should be "throwing off the blanket they are hiding under." Might as well just give them cover in the cart (have them kneel behind a barrel) and then they can attack in the surprise round.


Lasso:

I'd use the net rules. If they are entangled, they are caught in the lasso.


Pushing the cart off the bridge:

Any PCs should be able to resist this, as if it were a Bull Rush attempt. So the Fighter will roll against any PC who is lassoed to the cart. If any PC beats the Fighter, they dig in their heels and stop the cart.


EL:

I'd make it EL 6 (for CRs) +1 or 2 (for ambush and location), since your group has an EL of 8. Tough, close to TPK range. Good solid encounter.

That means 4 CR 2 creatures, or 3 Fighter2s and 2 Ninja1s. I'd use 3 Barbarian1s (half-orcs) and 3 halfling Ninja1s and one boss, a Wizard2. He can use Enlarge person on the Barbarians to give them better Bull Rush checks.

I think that's right: 6 CR1 = 3 CR2, + 1 CR2 = 4 CR2 = EL 6.

The PC's biggest smack will come from a Sleep spell. If we use Barbarians, they will be raging and get a +2 bonus to will saves. Barbarian abilities scores should be Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8.

 

[Warrior Poet]

Oh, good point, I forgot that part.

Sorry, actually, that's not my point at all.

My point is that it's Abstraction's world. Abstraction can do with it whatever Abstraction wants. Halfling ninjas? Awesome. Bridges that defy our real world engineering? No problem. I was pointing out that I think it's irrelevant to call Abstraction on a real-world physics issue in a fantasy game populated by halfling ninjas, dragons, and bull-rushing carts. In other words, if Thunderfoot's going to question Abstraction's engineering in D&D, why not go ahead and question the existence of halfling ninjas, because in a fantasy setting controlled by Abstraction those things are Abstraction's to adjudicate as desired.

Basically, I don't care about the circumstances or plot or physics. Those are for Abstraction to decide and are irrelevant, it seems to me, to resolving the questions Abstraction posed.

Warrior Poet

 

[NCSUCodeMonkey]

For this Sunday's game, I plan on having the group ambushed while crossing a great, majestic stone bridge high over a sizable river. As the group is going across, several humans pushing pushcarts are coming the other way. Maybe 3 of them? The players will each get a check (spot? sense motive?) to avoid being surprised. The humans will all be the same thing, probably Fighter 1 or 2. When they get close enough, up pop from the carts a halfling ninja in each, Ninja 2 or 3. Each will try to lasso a party member. What kind of check? If successful, they or the human will push the pushcart off the side of the bridge (which has no railing or other safety device). What kind of action to push the cart off? Does it require a check? The rope is, of course, tied to the cart. What kind of check for the character to resist being pulled over. I was thinking the bullrush mechanic might be most appropriate, but what is the strength and size of a cart?

Finally, good or idea or not? What would you do different? The group is 5 characters, all 3rd level, plus an elven child NPC and human commoner NPC. I guess I should include that one character rides a big bull. Other than that, there is a medium snake, a raven and a weasel also along.

The encounter sounds lethal, I like it . The most important thing that you need to do is make sure that the rules make sense and are fair to the players. Lethal is fine so long as the players don't feel cheated. With that in mind:

+ Even if the ninjas get a surprise round, remember that they only get half actions. Disentangling yourself from a push cart is probably going to consume at least a move equiv, at least in my book.
+ Bull-rush works perfectly for the "pulling over the edge" mechanic. I say go with it. I'd set the strength of the push cart such that the average party member has a 50/50 chance of beating it. Sure, it's rigging the odds, but you're going for suspense, right?
+ Rather than declaring an encumbrance for the carts, I'd just decide how much they weigh. That lets each combatant's strength score determine how difficult it is to push the cart. You can push a LOT, even with a low strength, e.g. Str 10 can drag/push about 1000lbs (assuming these carts have wheels).

That's all I can think of, at the moment. It should be a very dynamic combat. Be sure to report back and let us know how it goes!

NCSUCodeMonkey

 

[LostSoul]

Some other thoughts:

PCs pushed off the bridge shouldn't take too much damage - I don't imagine it's that high off the ground. Say 30', which is 2d6 damage (lowered by 1d6 for falling into water, I think). Basically, you're taking them out of the fight for a while, until they can get out of the lasso and swim to shore.

The real danger is the PCs who are left on the bridge fighting against the remaining NPCs.

So that any character who is pushed off the bridge can still do things, have them be able to stand on the cart as it moves down the river. Give them a balance check so that they don't fall prone. Then they can make ranged attacks at anyone on the bridge (but everyone on the bridge has cover).

Spellcasters on the cart should have to make concentration checks (there's a listing for it in the Concentration description) in order to cast spells.

 

[Pielorinho]

It seems likely to me that it'd be pretty difficult to throw a lasso if one end of it is tied to the cart. I would have one end of it be a loop, and the ninjas each holding the entire rope in their hands; once they've lassoed someone successfully, they need to take a move action to put the other looped end around a spike on the cart. This gives people an additional way to break free.

Also, could the petal-bridge have outcroppings on it? I think it'd be pretty fun if someone, to save themselves, throw themselves over the edge of the bridge, but over an outcropping, so that it basically forms a pulley, with them at one end of the pulley and the cart at the other.

Finally, what if the ninjas can use rope in other fun ways? If they start getting hurt, a leaping dramatic rappell off the side of the bridge could be fun--especially if a PC gets the bright idea to cut the rope .

Daniel

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

PCs pushed off the bridge shouldn't take too much damage - I don't imagine it's that high off the ground. Say 30', which is 2d6 damage (lowered by 1d6 for falling into water, I think). Basically, you're taking them out of the fight for a while, until they can get out of the lasso and swim to shore.

30' would be 3d6 damage, reduced by 1d6 for water, yes.

However, I'm not sure that we're talking about a 30' fall, given that I'm uncertain as to how to read this post:

The bridge is an ancient mystery, actually. One bank of the river is at ground level, the other side is a 100' cliff. The bridge is in the shape of a stone flower. The stem is a circular staircase and the bloom is the bridge itself.

I'm not sure if there's basically a waterfall under the bridge, or if the bridge is heavily sloped, etc.

 

[NCSUCodeMonkey]

30' would be 3d6 damage, reduced by 1d6 for water, yes.

However, I'm not sure that we're talking about a 30' fall, given that I'm uncertain as to how to read this post:



I'm not sure if there's basically a waterfall under the bridge, or if the bridge is heavily sloped, etc.

I think it means that there's a staircase going up about 100 ft with a bridge at the top of it. So, you go from the low side of the river, up the staircase, and across the bloom bridge at the top.

So I guess that's 9d6 damage? Ouch.

NCSUCodeMonkey

 

[LostSoul]

It seems likely to me that it'd be pretty difficult to throw a lasso if one end of it is tied to the cart. I would have one end of it be a loop, and the ninjas each holding the entire rope in their hands; once they've lassoed someone successfully, they need to take a move action to put the other looped end around a spike on the cart. This gives people an additional way to break free.

That's a good idea. Maybe give the Ninjas a -4 penalty if the lasso is already tied? (Standard non-proficient weapon penalty.)

The Ninja are going to have to take Exotic Weapon Prof.: Lasso in order to use it effectively.

I'd target the smaller and weaker PCs first (halflings, wizards), since they are more likely to fail the Bull Rush check.

 

[LostSoul]

I think it means that there's a staircase going up about 100 ft with a bridge at the top of it. So, you go from the low side of the river, up the staircase, and across the bloom bridge at the top.

So I guess that's 9d6 damage? Ouch.

NCSUCodeMonkey

If that's true, I'd use this rule:

Falling into Water: Falls into water are handled somewhat differently. If the water is at least 10 feet deep, the first 20 feet of falling do no damage. The next 20 feet do nonlethal damage (1d3 per 10-foot increment). Beyond that, falling damage is lethal damage (1d6 per additional 10-foot increment).

So that they would take 2d3 nonlethal + 6d6 lethal. That's still a hell of a lot for 3rd-level PCs (the damage will probably be 17-25 lethal (avg. 21), 4 non-lethal - a high damage roll will kill a Wizard). Make sure that they are able to make Jump and Tumble checks to reduce the damage if this is the case.

edit: I missed an important part of that rule:

Characters who deliberately dive into water take no damage on a successful DC 15 Swim check or DC 15 Tumble check, so long as the water is at least 10 feet deep for every 30 feet fallen. However, the DC of the check increases by 5 for every 50 feet of the dive.

That would be a DC 25 Swim check (nobody's going to make it except a Fighter who has maxed Swim and isn't wearing any armour) or Tumble check (a high-dex rogue/bard/monk might be able to make this).

What a good time for a featherfall spell.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I think it means that there's a staircase going up about 100 ft with a bridge at the top of it. So, you go from the low side of the river, up the staircase, and across the bloom bridge at the top.

So how do you get the carts up there?