D&D 5E Hp as meat and abstraction

Wulfgar76

First Post
Next has a rough analogue to healing surges (hit dice), and fighters get a per-day version of Second Wind. At the moment, that's it.
Since the description of Hit Dice says it requires an hour (a short rest) resting and involves first aid, I really don't see how it's similar at all.
Second Wind is temporary HP, closer I suppose, but still believable as 'tapping into reserves of stamina.'

That said, I certainly do not want to see a Warlord class that duplicates Cleric-style healing. I guess that's my line in the sand.
 

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Balesir

Adventurer
I certainly do not want to see a Warlord class that duplicates Cleric-style healing. I guess that's my line in the sand.
Because there seems to be an egregious misrepresentation around this (not originating with you, Wulfgar, but your post was a convenient one to reply to), I'll clarify a bit:

- Warlords in 4E never were able to duplicate "Cleric-style healing". "Cleric-style healing" was Surgeless healing, which Warlords did not get. I'll come back to this below.

- When a Warlord "shouts you back up" (or however you want to put it) you are NOT "fine". You are a down a healing surge, and this does NOT equate to "fine" - it equates to "a bit beat up" or "feelin' it" (or possibly worse, if that is not the only healing surge you've lost).

- Surgeless healing in 4E is only available to magic wielding classes - and almost exclusively to Divine magic wielding classes. This is capable of healing you so that you are genuinely "fine" - because it doesn't take away any healing surges as it restores your hit points.

- Hit dice in Next kinda-sorta equate to healing surges in 4E, but the fact that healing generally doesn't require them waters that down, and they are not really suitable for penalising physical skill challenge failure or such like, which takes away part of their utility. But apart from that they are similar.
 

Derren

Hero
Balesir;6257757 - When a Warlord "shouts you back up" (or however you want to put it) you are NOT "fine". You are a [I said:
down a healing surge[/I], and this does NOT equate to "fine" - it equates to "a bit beat up" or "feelin' it" (or possibly worse, if that is not the only healing surge you've lost).

When you have to make death saves and after being shouted at do not and instead are back up and fighting again it certainly does count as "fine".
 

XunValdorl_of_Kilsek

Banned
Banned
Is it? I agree it implies some portion is meat damage, but is it all meat damage or even most?

This implies you "get more meat" as you gain levels, and you're able to survive wading through lava because you "have more meat".

Regeneration and fast healing can be just as easily you re-gaining all those non-meat parts that make up hit points.


Ehhhh no. Regeneration and Fast Healing have "always" been associated with actual wounds closing up.
 

Balesir

Adventurer
When you have to make death saves and after being shouted at do not and instead are back up and fighting again it certainly does count as "fine".
Don't agree; for one thing you are still at least one surge down. For a second thing it sounds like what CPR or (in genre fiction) a slap to the face could accomplish.
 


darjr

I crit!
Don't agree; for one thing you are still at least one surge down. For a second thing it sounds like what CPR or (in genre fiction) a slap to the face could accomplish.

I think my 4e might be fuzzy but didn't clerics grant a use of a surge plus a die in HP? A surge was spent? Wasn't it a problem if you were out of surges cause the cleric couldn't really heal you anymore?
 

Wulfgar76

First Post
Because there seems to be an egregious misrepresentation around this (not originating with you, Wulfgar, but your post was a convenient one to reply to), I'll clarify a bit:

- Warlords in 4E never were able to duplicate "Cleric-style healing". "Cleric-style healing" was Surgeless healing, which Warlords did not get. I'll come back to this below.
Correct, I remember now.

My problem with healing in 4e wasn't as much the realism or lack thereof, its that there was so much of it. A character with 80 hit points, 16 healing surges, 8 ways to trigger surges, isn't dying - ever.

And I had a party with a Warlord and a Cleric *shudder*
 


Alzrius

The EN World kitten
You seriously don't see the absurdity of these two answers from the same position?

THEY BOTH MAKE NO SENSE.

They don't both have to outrun the owlbear, one just has to outrun the other. Or in other words, which one holds up better against a casual examination? "Which makes less sense" is a viable critique in that regard.

"Chewing you out" doesn't make "less" sense than the idea that hit points are your skill in dodging a blow even though you never consult hit points to actually dodge something when rules when the rules call for dodging something. They're both absurd ideas that get erased in the abstraction that is hit points, and it doesn't matter if one is "absurd to the 5th degree" and the other is "absurd to the 6th degree" since once you reach "absurd to any degree" the entire concept either becomes an abstraction or needs help.

They don't get "erased" in the abstraction - even if it is abstract, there's still an idea that's understood as what's being abstracted. That idea still needs to make a certain degree of sense, to the point that disbelief can be suspended. I'm saying that one accomplishes that better than the other.

No one's talking about discarding hit points altogether, and when there are only two models, and one is absurd to the 5th degree, and the other is absurd to the 6th degree, then you go with the lesser of the two absurdities.

I am not trying to make sense of this - you're the one here trying to say it's a Wuxia movie while simultaneously claiming there is some logical explanation here for each of these things. There is no logical explanation here for many things that happen at high level.

There is a logical explanation for things that happen at high level; the presence of wuxia doesn't somehow mean that logic is thrown out the window. I suspect that you find these concepts irreconcilable because you take "logic" to mean "functioning according to how things work in the real world," whereas I'm taking it to mean "functions by internally consistent explanations."

If you use the latter definition, the idea of hit point loss as physical damage holds up. Hit point loss as an unspecified mixture of physical damage, luck, morale, divine protection, and fatigue does not.

Just give in to the fact that hit points are such an abstraction that you cannot focus on the details too much. When you focus on the details too much, it makes no sense, particularly at high levels. It's a gamist invention. It's not simulating anything. At one time it tracked how many actual hits you could take, but that time is long past and now it's an amorphous number you track on a sheet of paper which sometimes you can try and explain for entertainment and sometimes it's best to just not think about it too much.

I agree that it's a gamist construct, but it's not a dissociated mechanic in terms of what it represents, since it has an in-game analogue, that being that when your hit points are gone you're dead (or otherwise out of the fight). Ergo, you need to tie an in-game explanation to what's happening in that case. It's not like feat slots, where there's no easy way to explain what they are from an in-character standpoint. Hit points do mean something, even if that meaning is one that only holds up to casual scrutiny.
 
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