HUGE problem with governing! (PLEASE HELP!)

[MaxKaladin]

S'mon and billd91 are right about the density of communities. You probably DO have this much to deal with. Some suggestions for rules that abstract things a bit more would be:

AEG's Empires book. It has a system that scales with the area you're dealing with.

and

TSR's old Dungeons and Dragons "Rules 'Cyclopedia" or the Companion set. This had a system for managing dominions made up of 24 mile hexes that was pretty good. There were a number of expansions on the theme in Dragon several years back if you can hunt those down as well. They were in the "Voyage of the Princess Ark" articles around 190 or 200, IIRC.

It sounds to me like I ought to check out this system you've got since I like detailed systems like that.

 

[S'mon]

My trusty photocopy of the D&D Companion Set rules still stands me in good stead.

 

[ashockney]

I ran into the same problems for a FR war between Rashemen and Thay (see thread started by me in General Discussion for extreme details).

There's also a great thread out there that breaks down each of these supplements and how they add/detract in value, depending on what you need. Nobody mentioned the Companion set, though. Duh!

In the end, for me, I used mostly Cry Havoc and Medieval: Western Europe. I did mix in some "Rolemaster" components to speed things up a bit for "large scale" tactics, which worked better than those presented in Cry Havoc. This worked out quickly and effectively to resolve war components (less so on the kingdom building stuff).

As far as population goes, I ran into the same problem. Too few cities for such a HUGE landmass (Rashemen in FR). But, ironically, if you looked up the ratio of "TOTAL POPULATION" for Rashemen, took the total landmass, and used the Medieval:Western Europe stat recommendations, they worked out almost PERFECT. The implication, however, was that for every major city, there were dozens of local "castle/tiny towns" ruled like minor fiefdoms, approximately one for every 10 miles. The majority of the population, as a result, lived outside the major cities of the land (around 70%/30% as I recall).

 

[Emiricol]

Historically cities were a vast minority of the population - maybe arounr 8% IIRC. The rest lived in small villages and thorps.

In Fields of Blood, keep in mind it isn't one settlement per 12 mile hex. It's the biggest settlement in the hext that gets listed, but there can be others.

For the command resources problem there's a simple fix from a game I was going to start but never got around to:

To make large realms financially manageable (the rules penalize anything over 10 hexes very heavily), we have a custom rule: Rulers can either establish regional capitols or assign subcommanders (Governors, Dukes, whatever you want to call them).

Regional capitols have a cost of X, and can control up to 10 hexes each. The resources raised by the territory controlled by this sub-capitol are added to the general pool, but the upkeep for forces stationed in their territory and so on is calculated separately from the primary ruling territory's.

Assigning a subcommander costs X, and he or she is assigned from 1 to 5 hexes. For all intents and purposes this sub-realm is a separate realm. It can take its own actions, it raises its own forces, and it keeps separate track of money raised and upkeep paid for its provinces (hexes). Subcommanders must follow orders given from those above them, but how they accomplish it is entirely up to them and whatever they negotiate with the ruler.

As you can see, creating regional capitols gives the top ruler more money, and more troops at his or her disposal. However, assigning sub-commanders means the ruler won't have to worry about defending that border since the subcommander territory acts as a buffer, and the realm as a whole is able to take a larger number of actions each turn.

 

[Dr. Harry]

The following website is free, and I hope, useful. (It has been very useful for me.)

Medieval Demographics Made Easy
http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm

 

[MarauderX]

It sounds to me like I ought to check out this system you've got since I like detailed systems like that.

Fields of Blood is pretty good, and is the best out there since the turquois Companion's Set, levels 15-25, IMO. You can get as in-depth with it as you want, and I am using it for my homebrew to gloss over much of it to get good +/- figures for different baronies.

FoB kinda asks you to detail every hex across the land; why bother when you have 500+? Break it down to make it easy on yourself - say that 50% is unsettled, 20% has villages, etc. and build it from there. The idea of the upkeep is to keep rulers of vast nations from piling up hoards quickly, and you can see that after a few seasons if your upkeep is varys from the 70-80%. Imagine a king sitting around for 20+ years gathering loot... you will see how it would add up.

I use an excel spreadsheet to keep my affairs in order, and should only have to change a few things to keep it running smoothly. Keep in mind that I don't incorporate all of the rules...

As far as detailing, I would put together one average hex of each type and repeat it as necessary. Perhaps two for some, just in case there are 'poor' areas of the region. Either way, I don't have the time to figure out each of 500 hexes when the PCs are never going to see ~80% of them, let alone try to micromanage them.

 

[trancejeremy]

D&D settings are not really medieval, though. I mean, besides the obvious (magic!), they really aren't feudal, in the sense that most the people are serfs, and tied to the land. This changes things dramatically. I think the Roman empire is a much better analog for D&D style settings.



(I remember I tried pointing that to the author of that article years ago on usenet, and he completely flipped out.)

But yeah, Fields of Blood is a nice try, but the scale seems too small. It seems aimed at very small things, like islands the size of say, Hawai'i, or people on the frontiers of things.

 

[Anubis]

Wow! I like that article on demographics! Perfect!

Holy cow . . . Sterich has a population of 1,707,750?!?!?! Only 1% live in the big cities. That's giving only 33 per sq. mi., too!

By my calculations, the old Great Kingdom would have had a population of about 18,000,000!



Wicked! Well, at least that helps!

I think I'll only "list" things that AREN'T thorpes, and assume the thorpes are just "there". Then I just have the total hex count, subtract the bigger city hexes, and count the rest as thorpes with no improvements. By house ruling that thorpes can't develop in any way except for moving to the next level, that gets rid of needing any stats on the thorpes. Thorpes also won't count in the Governing Style Upkeep, which to me will only come into play if the number of communities that are thorpes drops below 50%.

 

[S'mon]

The demographics article is great, though I agree that an article on the demographics of the Roman empire would also be handy - I suspect that Roman populations varied a lot more than medieval feudal - very high in Italy, very low in eg Britain, say, with much more D&D-style clustering around towns. IMC I use an 80:20 rural:urban population ratio, which is probably closer to the Classical World than to the medieval model.

 

[Dr. Harry]

Wow! I like that article on demographics! Perfect!

Holy cow . . . Sterich has a population of 1,707,750?!?!?! Only 1% live in the big cities. That's giving only 33 per sq. mi., too!

By my calculations, the old Great Kingdom would have had a population of about 18,000,000!

Yes; Greyhawk as a world is strongly underpopulated; perhaps the wandering moster tables are a little too strong ...

I think I'll only "list" things that AREN'T thorpes, and assume the thorpes are just "there". Then I just have the total hex count, subtract the bigger city hexes, and count the rest as thorpes with no improvements. By house ruling that thorpes can't develop in any way except for moving to the next level, that gets rid of needing any stats on the thorpes. Thorpes also won't count in the Governing Style Upkeep, which to me will only come into play if the number of communities that are thorpes drops below 50%.

I do not know the system, but it is certainly reasonable to think that Thorpes are small enough to take care (or have to take care) of themselves. If there are foraging rules for armies, the populated areas should provide more resources the first few times any army moves through the area, so marking the "zones with too many thorpes to list" might be helpful to you.

D&D settings are not really medieval, though. I mean, besides the obvious (magic!), they really aren't feudal, in the sense that most the people are serfs, and tied to the land. This changes things dramatically. I think the Roman empire is a much better analog for D&D style settings.

True enough, magic is going to change things - see Expeditious Retreat's Magical Medieval Society: Western Europe

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=711&

with a free chapter:

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=1678&

It is true, however, that most fantasy worlds start as Medieval-esque. Do you have any recommended sources on the Roman Empire?