Huh, I apparently have a +28 tumble

[Lord Pendragon]

I think the non-AoO-provoking free action is the key part here. My cousin can do kip-ups pretty well, but when he tried one during a multiple-opponents drill in martial arts class he got beat right back down.

Exactly. The high DC is because you don't just have to do the kip-up, you have to do it in under a second, and in such a way that you're never left vulnerable while you do it. Not that easy at all.

 

[Pielorinho]

I haven't had any gynmastic training, and just a bit of marital arts (and we didn't work on kipups).

Not trying to pick on you, but this is one of the funniest typos I've seen in awhile .

On-topic, I do agree that the DC is pretty high, and am happy leaving it at 25 as we did in last night's session. I don't like combat maneuvers being restricted either to folks with feats or folks with epic levels. DC 25 makes it within reach for all tumbly characters, and makes it reasonably attempted by mid-level tumblers. And I can't see how doing this without suffering an AoO is possibly going to be harder than diving between a giant's legs (Tumble DC 25) would be.

Daniel

 

[Celebrim]

I never thought that using tumble to stand back up as a free action should be that difficult either, and before thier even was a 'Kip Up' feat, and before the ELH came out I was letting characters with tumble do it as a DC 15 action. In fact, I was letting characters who where tripped or thrown stand back up as a free action _on the turn they were tripped_ (for instance to negate the +4 to hit improved trip's free attack would normally recieve) as a DC 25 action. Those numbers were based on a comparison of the difficulty in tumbling through an enemies square - a feat of skill that seemed far harder to me than either form of quick stand.

If someone wanted to take a narrow idea like 'Kip Up' as a feat IMC, I would probably translate it into giving them a +4 bonus on the above rolls, and allow them to take 10 regardless of circumstance. Effectively, this would let them Kip Up for free provided they had no huge penalties on thier tumble roll.

I've always liked tumble, balance, climb, and other skill checks and thus never felt the need to develop whole classes (like Duelist) to make a lightly armored combatant doable. A lightly armored combatant might not have quite the advantage in a straight up fight, but there are just sooooo many other situations where you would be so glad you aren't hulking around in 60 lbs of steel (as any real life adventurer should be able to attest).

 

[Darklone]

Hmm, let's see, I got some friends who use to do kip-ups in full plate mail with shield... without dropping their one handed spear.

 

[Tellerve]

In the dmg they have balancing and crossing a tightrope a dc20. That is far beyond what I can do and still 15 less in dc.

Darklone- k, now your just being silly.

Pielorinho- I am here to amuse and bug you. I apparently do both so well.

 

[magnas_veritas]

Exactly. The high DC is because you don't just have to do the kip-up, you have to do it in under a second, and in such a way that you're never left vulnerable while you do it. Not that easy at all.

And, the most important thing of all: Looking really cool when you do it.

Brad

 

[DMauricio]

I'll have to agree that kip-ups are not all that hard to do with some training.
(And seeing as tumble was a skill you couldn't utilise untrained I don't see a problem with lowering the DC of a single kip-up)

However, no way would I say doing a kip up without getting hit is easy.

(and I used to be able to do kip-ups with things in my hands in my younger days)

A kip up when used in a melee (or so I've found) usually leads into someone hitting you just as you get your shoulders up



HTH

Dom

 

[Tellerve]

Ok, then why does sitting up and pulling yourself to your feat not get an AoO? I just cannot rationalize why someone who stands up from prone doesn't get an AoO.

Tellerve

 

[MarauderX]

I'll have to agree that kip-ups are not all that hard to do with some training.
(And seeing as tumble was a skill you couldn't utilise untrained I don't see a problem with lowering the DC of a single kip-up)

However, no way would I say doing a kip up without getting hit is easy.

(and I used to be able to do kip-ups with things in my hands in my younger days)

A kip up when used in a melee (or so I've found) usually leads into someone hitting you just as you get your shoulders up



HTH

Dom

Yeah, no way would I try it in a fight, I would probably get tagged in the head just as I came up. I guess it's a full round action for me, or at least a move equivelent.

 

[Nareau]

IMC, I actually use 10+highest attack bonus as the DC to tumble around people. It's easier than trying to figure out their BAB on the fly.

Spider