Human Monks can take Improved Natural Attack?

[Artoomis]

...IMHO, the only way to reconcile all of the various rules, spells, etc. dealing with unarmed strikes is to consider them a special subset of natural weapons. It is consistent with the PHB spells M. Fang/M. Weapon/Align Weapon; its consistent with the Monk and the Kensai; it explains why unarmed strikes have slightly variant rules from the bulk of natural weapons in the 2 weapon fighting rules (perhaps its meant to reflect martial training- my punches are significantly different from a black belt's).

If you rule that they are not, you negate the explicit text of several sections, both Core and optional- something I am loath to do...

Exactly right.

Agian, for emphasis:

...the only way to reconcile all of the various rules, spells, etc. dealing with unarmed strikes is to consider them a special subset of natural weapons.

 

[Dimwhit]

Exactly right.

Agian, for emphasis:

...the only way to reconcile all of the various rules, spells, etc. dealing with unarmed strikes is to consider them a special subset of natural weapons.

I might go for that, though they have two seperate attack forms. An unarmed strike uses the Attack (Unarmed) action, whereas a 'natural weapon' is considered an Attack (Melee) action. Not sure if that prevents one being a subset of the other or not, but it's something else to throw into the mix.

Edit: Actually, I'm wrong. From the SRD (and this tends to support your view):

Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe.

An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).

“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed. Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)

Unarmed Strike Damage: An unarmed strike from a Medium character deals 1d3 points of damage (plus your Strength modifier, as normal). A Small character’s unarmed strike deals 1d2 points of damage, while a Large character’s unarmed strike deals 1d4 points of damage. All damage from unarmed strikes is nonlethal damage. Unarmed strikes count as light weapons (for purposes of two-weapon attack penalties and so on).

Dealing Lethal Damage: You can specify that your unarmed strike will deal lethal damage before you make your attack roll, but you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, you can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike without taking a penalty on the attack roll.

 

[Borlon]

I thought I would collect some definitions from the wizards site for people to refer to.

Natural Weapon: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach.

Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack -- generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or armlike limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature's remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature's Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature's Full Attack entry. A creature's primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature's physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature's full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.

Bite: The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage.

Claw or Talon: The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.

Gore: The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage.

Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.

Sting: The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage.

Tentacle: The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.

manufactured weapons
Some monsters employ manufactured weapons when they attack. Creatures that use swords, bows, spears, and the like follow the same rules as characters, including those for additional attacks from a high base attack bonus and two-weapon fighting penalties. This category also includes "found items," such as rocks and logs, that a creature wields in combat -- in essence, any weapon that is not intrinsic to the creature.

Some creatures combine attacks with natural and manufactured weapons when they make a full attack. When they do so, the manufactured weapon attack is considered the primary attack unless the creature's description indicates otherwise (using the manufactured weapon consumes most of the creature's attention), and any natural weapons the creature also uses are considered secondary natural attacks. These secondary attacks do not interfere with the primary attack as attacking with an off-hand weapon does, but they take the usual -5 penalty (or -2 with the Multiattack feat) for such attacks, even if the natural weapon used is normally the creature's primary natural weapon.

unarmed attack: A melee attack made with no weapon in hand.

unarmed strike:A successful blow, typically dealing nonlethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons. A monk can deal lethal damage with an unarmed strike, but others deal nonlethal damage.

There are lots of dissimilarities between unarmed attacks/strikes and natural weapons. I really don't see how anyone consider an unarmed strike to be a natural weapon. The most accurate description is that it is an attack without a weapon.

 

[Dimwhit]

You know, I'm REALLY tempted to throw and the 'primary source' argument and say the the Wizards website isn't a Primary Source.

 

[Borlon]

Well, they claim that these definitions are collated from official books. PHB, MM3, places like that. I didn't list the original sources in the quotes, but you are free to go to the website and poke around.

 

[Artoomis]

...There are lots of dissimilarities between unarmed attacks/strikes and natural weapons...

I certainly do not deny that. Thus unarmed attacks are a SUBSET or SPECIAL CASE of natural weapons whch neatly reconciles all the places where they are referred to as natiural weapons with decsriptions of how natural weapons and unarmed attacks work.

 

[Caliban]

Or reconcile the two. Remember that unarmed attacks (or fists, or unarmed strikes) are referred to as natural weapons in numerous places.

In the 3 core rule books? I've seen it in some of the supplemental material, but I don't recall anywhere that this mistake is made the core rule books.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I really don't see how anyone consider an unarmed strike to be a natural weapon.

Well, if:

Natural Weapon: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature.

+

unarmed strike: A successful blow, typically dealing nonlethal damage, from a character attacking without weapons

If you are attacking without using a weapon, you must, by definition, use only parts of your body (since if you use ANYTHING other than an "empty hand" or a manufactured weapon, you're using an improvised weapon, spell, power, etc.).

+

Parts of a PC's body are physically a part of the PC.

+

The PC is a creature.

= Unarmed Strikes & Natural weapons are equivalent.

It is just that the weapons of most PC races are very poor in comparison to most animals and monsters, and as such, deal only subdual damage as opposed to lethal damage. However, with luck or training (reflected in the game in the form of the Feat IUC), even the poor weapons humans have been given can become lethal.

In the 3 core rule books? I've seen it in some of the supplemental material, but I don't recall anywhere that this mistake is made the core rule books.

Align Weapon PHB p197; Magic Weapon PHB p251 both contain the phrase "You can't cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike." Magic Fang PHB 250 lists "fist" among natural weapons.

 

[Storyteller01]

I certainly do not deny that. Thus unarmed attacks are a SUBSET or SPECIAL CASE of natural weapons whch neatly reconciles all the places where they are referred to as natiural weapons with decsriptions of how natural weapons and unarmed attacks work.

Don't forget about the various dissimilarities between other natural attacks (claws vs bite vs gore vs ...).

 

[Caliban]

Well, if:


+
If you are attacking without using a weapon, you must, by definition, use only parts of your body (since if you use ANYTHING other than an "empty hand" or a manufactured weapon, you're using an improvised weapon, spell, power, etc.).

+

Parts of a PC's body are physically a part of the PC.

+

The PC is a creature.

= Unarmed Strikes & Natural weapons are equivalent.

Only if you use a very small part of the definition of natural weapon and ignore the rest.

Natural weapons do lethal damage, do not make iterative attacks, and are generally specialized for that purpose: claw, horn, hoof, fang. The only one that's not is a Slam, which is the most similar to unarmed strike, but if unarmed strike was a type of Slam, I think they would say so.

Align Weapon PHB p197; Magic Weapon PHB p251 both contain the phrase "You can't cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike." Magic Fang PHB 250 lists "fist" among natural weapons.

I stand corrected. The mistake is repeated in the PHB.