Human Monks can take Improved Natural Attack?

[Hypersmurf]

I'd still like to see the other side's comment regarding the Human Heritage feat from Races of Destiny.

That's the one that's prompted me to ask - can my Half-Elf Ranger take Elf Ranger Substitution levels at 1st and 10th, and Half-Elf Ranger Substitution levels at 4th and 13th?

-Hyp.

 

[Borlon]

That's the one that's prompted me to ask - can my Half-Elf Ranger take Elf Ranger Substitution levels at 1st and 10th, and Half-Elf Ranger Substitution levels at 4th and 13th?

-Hyp.

Where are these racial substitution levels from? If they are from a recent book, I imagine that the Principle of Prerequisite Conversion (PPC) applies, and they can take them. Unless they specifically exclude half elves, of course.

Do you have any suggestions about how PPC should be worded?

 

[FireLance]

That's the one that's prompted me to ask - can my Half-Elf Ranger take Elf Ranger Substitution levels at 1st and 10th, and Half-Elf Ranger Substitution levels at 4th and 13th?

From a rules perspective, it can be argued both ways (as this thread has shown). From a balance perspective, I don't think it would be a problem. Overall, I'm inclined to say yes (I would, wouldn't I? ) as I don't think it's much different from a half-elf being able to take levels in elf paragon (Unearthed Arcana) after he takes at least one level of half-elf paragon. The ability to draw on elements of his human and elven heritage (and the unique characteristics that result from blending the both of them) should be the particular strength of the half-elf, IMO.

Of course, the counter-argument is that a half-elf should be able to take levels in elf paragon even without taking levels in half-elf paragon . However, as has been mentioned, the rules are occasionally inconsistent about what it means to have elven (or orc, or human) blood, or to have the elf (or orc, or human) subtype.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Of course, the counter-argument is that a half-elf should be able to take levels in elf paragon even without taking levels in half-elf paragon .

Actually, there's a specific rule to prohibit it:

As a general rule, a member of a subrace can take levels in the standard race's paragon class unless a specific paragon class exists for the subrace. For example, aquatic elves, gray elves, wild elves, and wood elves may all advance as elf paragons, but drow elves may not, because drow have a separate paragon class. If you wanted to further differentiate the elven subraces by creating a paragon class for one or more of the subraces, those subraces could not then take levels of elf paragon.

If the half-elf paragon class did not exist, a half-elf could (or could not) take levels in the elf paragon class in exactly the same fashion that he can (or cannot) take elf substitution levels. But by the 'specific subrace paragon class' clause, the existence of the half-elf paragon class prohibits a half-elf taking levels in elf paragon by using his Elven Blood feature, until he has taken a level in half-elf paragon.

Borlon - racial substitution levels are from the Races Of series - elf substitution levels are found in Races of the Wild, and half-elf substitution levels are found in Races of Destiny.

-Hyp.

 

[FoxWander]

Holy jumping mother o'God in a side-car with chocolate jimmies and a lobster bib!

Wow! You guys sure know how to take a fairly simple concept and complicate the heck out of it. You don’t need to bring in any extra rulings or analogies or complex comparisons- because that’s just giving everyone EVEN MORE to “discuss.” The monk’s unarmed strike rules and the INA feat are ALL that’s needed to figure this out.

These have been quoted ad-nauseum, but I’ll do it one more time just to be sure of what I’m talking about. (Note: I have cut out any reference to manufactured weapons, because they don’t matter for INA, likewise I’ve cut reference to spells since INA is not a spell). So we have this…
A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon for the purpose of effects that enhance or improve natural weapons.

Easy enough: if it improves natural weapons then it’ll work on a monk’s unarmed strikes.

Then there’s the Improved Natural Attack feat…
IMPROVED NATURAL ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.
A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

Now here’s what I see as the simple part… the end result of this feat is improving a natural weapon. That’s all you need to know- it improves a natural weapon, so it works on a monk’s unarmed strikes. (actually I don’t think anyone has a problem with this up to this point, is that correct? Can we all agree that INA will work on a monk’s IUS?)

Since INA has/grants/becomes/is (whatever your word choice, it makes no difference to my argument) an “effect that enhances or improves a natural weapon,” my first bolded point can be reworded to read: A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon for the purpose of INA.

So, as far as the feat is concerned the monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon. We can now reword that original statement to read: A monk has a natural weapon for the purpose of INA. Therefore they meet the prerequisites (assuming a +4 BAB) and can take the feat.

It really is that simple- the feat improves natural weapons, therefore monk’s IUS = natural weapon, resulting in monks, with a +4 BAB also, fulfill the prereqs and can take the feat.

This makes the question in the title of the post into a simple statement- Human Monks can take Improved Natural Attack!

 

[FireLance]

Okay, I think this is probably as clear as it will ever get, unless someone finds something else in the rules. The text of Racial Substitution Levels on page 145 of Races of Stone states the following:

"To qualify for a racial substitution level, you must be of the proper race. For instance, to select a racial substitution level of dwarf fighter, you must be a dwarf (or be considered a dwarf; see the stoneblessed prestige class in Chapter 5 for an example of what this means)."

The text doesn't say it explicitly, but it stongly suggests that a stoneblessed has some ability which allows it to be considered a dwarf. This is probably the Stoneborn ability, which is as follows:

"At 3rd level, a stoneblessed completes the bond with her chosen race.

1. The stoneblessed gains a permanent +2 increase to her Constitution score.
2. In addition, for all effects related to race, a stoneblessed is considered a member of the race to which she is bonded. For example, dwarf-bonded stoneblessed are just as vulnerable to effects and abilities that affect dwarves as actual dwarves are (such as a ranger's favored enemy ability), and they can use magic items that are usable only by dwarves.
3. The stoneblessed meets any racial prerequisites for prestige classes and feats as if she were a member of her bonded race.
4. Finally, the stoneblessed gets an ability based on her type of racial bond."

I had argued that points (2) and (3) are actually the same point, and that the stoneblessed's ability to be considered a member of the race to which she is bonded for all effects related to race includes the ability to meet the racial prerequisites for prestige classes and feats as if she was a member of her bonded race. However, some others have disagreed.

The text now strongly implies that a stoneblessed bonded to the dwarven race qualifies for racial substitution levels as if he was a dwarf. Strictly by the rules, a racial substitution level is neither a feat nor a prestige class (point 3). Neither is it a +2 bonus to Constitution (point 1) nor one of the abilities based on the racial bond (point 4 - effectively, Stonecunning, speak with animals and Toughness).

Hence, I conclude that the ability that allows a stoneblessed to qualify for racial substitution levels must be point 2, the ability to be considered a member of the race to which she is bonded for all effects related to race. So, a general interpretation of point 2 is that any ability that allows a character to be considered a member of a race for all effects related to race, such as elf blood or orc blood, allows that character to take racial substitution levels for that race. As such, a half-elf can take elf racial substitution levels.

However, separating point 2 and point 3 appears to create a quirk in the rules. A half-elf can qualify for elf racial substitution levels on the strength of his elf blood, but he cannot qualify for elf-only feats and prestige classes unless those feats and prestige classes explicitly allow half-elves to qualify for them (to be fair, most do). This is because qualifying for these feats and prestige classes is not considered an effect related to race, but qualifying for racial substitution levels somehow is.

It's fine to play with that interpretation. However, I choose to adopt a different one. The way I see it, point 2 and point 3 cannot be separated. If you are considered a member of a race for all effects related to race, you should be able to qualify for feats and prestige classes as if you were a member of that race, instead of just racial substitution levels.

So, relating back to the topic at hand, going by the interpretation I support, if a monk's unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon "for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance and improve ... natural weapons" it should also count as a natural weapon for the the purpose of qualifying for feats that improve natural weapons. Such as Improved Natural Attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Since INA has/grants/becomes/is (whatever your word choice, it makes no difference to my argument) an “effect that enhances or improves a natural weapon,” my first bolded point can be reworded to read: A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon for the purpose of INA.

The word choice, I'm afraid, does make a difference to your argument.

If INA has an effect that enhances etc, your first bolded point can be reworded to read A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon for the purpose of the effect INA has.

If INA grants an effect that enhances etc, your first bolded point can be reworded to read A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon for the purpose of the effect INA grants.

If INA becomes an effect that enhances etc, your first bolded point can be reworded to read A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon for the purpose of the effect INA becomes.

If INA is an effect that enhances etc, your first bolded point can be reworded to read A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon for the purpose of INA.

The first two would not flow back to the prerequisites - the prerequisites are not a part of the effect INA has, nor the effect INA grants.

The second two would. The prerequisites are part of INA, so if INA becomes an effect, or is an effect, the prerequisites are part of that effect.

The word choice is integral to the point.

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

When I last posted in this thread, I pointed out that drafter's intent is a source of clarification. Another source to examine is any other source that uses similar terminology, to see how a term or phrase has been interpreted or used in other contexts.

There is another source that supports the "fists as natural weapons" position (thus qualifying for INA). The PrCl Kensai has the supernatural class ability to enhance his or her signature weapon, and the text is pretty clear:

Complete Warrior, p51
Imbuing Natural Weapons The process for imbuing a kensai's natural weapons (such as his fists) is the sameas for a manufactured weapon...For example, a human kensai who has Weapon Focus (unarmed strike) may turn his fists into signature weapons...A kensai who imbues a particular kind of natural weapon must imbue all his natural weapons of that type (so a human kensai with two fists must imbue both fists)...

(Note- Andy Collins is one of the 3 designers of this project.)

Clearly, at least one of WOTC's designers explicitly considers fists as natural weapons.

However, like I stated before, I'd say that this is a class feature, and not expand it to all PCs that have taken IUA.

I also think its worth noting that Monte Cook included a Feat called Hands as Weapons in his Arcana Unearthed game that allows the feat taker to gain the benefits of weapon enchantments for his unarmed strikes. In HIS system, mere fists are not "natural weapons" but may be treated as manufactured weapons with this feat. He makes the distinction clearly and unavoidably. Even in the game's Monk-replacing class, the Oathsworn, there is no similar wording to the Monk or Kensai.

Summation: In D&D, mere fists count as natural weapons for purposes of INA and similar spells and effects, but only for certain classes and PrCls like the Monk or Kensai where text indicates that they may treat their unarmed attacks as natural weapons.

 

[Borlon]

"To qualify for a racial substitution level, you must be of the proper race. For instance, to select a racial substitution level of dwarf fighter, you must be a dwarf (or be considered a dwarf; see the stoneblessed prestige class in Chapter 5 for an example of what this means)."

The text doesn't say it explicitly, but it stongly suggests that a stoneblessed has some ability which allows it to be considered a dwarf. This is probably the Stoneborn ability, which is as follows:

"At 3rd level, a stoneblessed completes the bond with her chosen race.

1. The stoneblessed gains a permanent +2 increase to her Constitution score.
2. In addition, for all effects related to race, a stoneblessed is considered a member of the race to which she is bonded. For example, dwarf-bonded stoneblessed are just as vulnerable to effects and abilities that affect dwarves as actual dwarves are (such as a ranger's favored enemy ability), and they can use magic items that are usable only by dwarves.
3. The stoneblessed meets any racial prerequisites for prestige classes and feats as if she were a member of her bonded race.
4. Finally, the stoneblessed gets an ability based on her type of racial bond."

I had argued that points (2) and (3) are actually the same point, and that the stoneblessed's ability to be considered a member of the race to which she is bonded for all effects related to race includes the ability to meet the racial prerequisites for prestige classes and feats as if she was a member of her bonded race. However, some others have disagreed.

Point 2 seems to be that "counts as race X" applies to effects that apply differently based on race. Point 3 says the "counts as race X" applies to prerequisites that specify a particular race. If they were really the same point, I would think they would be together. But since they are separate, it suggests that qualifying for a race-specific effect is not the same as qualifying for a race specific pre-requisite.

The text now strongly implies that a stoneblessed bonded to the dwarven race qualifies for racial substitution levels as if he was a dwarf. Strictly by the rules, a racial substitution level is neither a feat nor a prestige class (point 3). Neither is it a +2 bonus to Constitution (point 1) nor one of the abilities based on the racial bond (point 4 - effectively, Stonecunning, speak with animals and Toughness).

Hence, I conclude that the ability that allows a stoneblessed to qualify for racial substitution levels must be point 2, the ability to be considered a member of the race to which she is bonded for all effects related to race. So, a general interpretation of point 2 is that any ability that allows a character to be considered a member of a race for all effects related to race, such as elf blood or orc blood, allows that character to take racial substitution levels for that race. As such, a half-elf can take elf racial substitution levels.

I would venture that it is really point 3 which allows them to take racial substitution levels. I know it doesn't say "racial substitution level" but I think people would just read the part that says "racial prerequisites." If they noticed that the racial prerequisites are only for feats and prestige classes, they would probably just claim that racial substitution levels are analagous.

However, separating point 2 and point 3 appears to create a quirk in the rules. A half-elf can qualify for elf racial substitution levels on the strength of his elf blood, but he cannot qualify for elf-only feats and prestige classes unless those feats and prestige classes explicitly allow half-elves to qualify for them (to be fair, most do). This is because qualifying for these feats and prestige classes is not considered an effect related to race, but qualifying for racial substitution levels somehow is.

You mean what the PHB says about half-elves and racial effects, right? That it counts for effects, but not for prerequisites? That would explain why feats specify "elf or half-elf" but sometimes exclude half-elves. But I thought that half-elves couldn't take elf racial substitution levels? Can they? (I don't have the books, so I can't just look them up.)

It's fine to play with that interpretation. However, I choose to adopt a different one. The way I see it, point 2 and point 3 cannot be separated. If you are considered a member of a race for all effects related to race, you should be able to qualify for feats and prestige classes as if you were a member of that race, instead of just racial substitution levels.

So if you have a collection of feats and prestige classes, and some of them say "elf or half-elf" in the prerequisites, and others say "elf" in the prerequisites, you would say that half-elves would meet the racial prerequisites of all of them?

So, relating back to the topic at hand, going by the interpretation I support, if a monk's unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon "for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance and improve ... natural weapons" it should also count as a natural weapon for the the purpose of qualifying for feats that improve natural weapons. Such as Improved Natural Attack.

That is the basis of my proposed "principle of prerequisite conversion." My old formulation is inadequate, though, since it suggests that half-elves would always meet racial prerequisites; which is not the case. Perhaps this version would be better:

Principle of Prerequisite Conversion: When X counts as Y for the purposes of effects that mention Y, then X also counts as Y for the purpose of prerequisites that mention Y.

You would invoke the PPC when an effect enhances natural weapons is being considered (specifically the INA feat). Then X = "a monk's unarmed attack" and Y = "a natural weapon". The effects and prerequisites would both belong to the INA feat.

However (and this is a trifle rules-lawyery), the PPC doesn't apply when a racial feat, prestige class, racial substitution level or paragon class is being considered. Poor writing aside, these feats etc. shouldn't mention their particular race when describing their effects; that would be redundant. And if "elf" is not mentioned in the effect, the "counts as elf" rule doesn't trigger, and so the PPC doesn't trigger. The result would be that half-elves would have to be specifically mentioned in the pre-requisites.

Does that sound right? Does the revised PPC account for the Sage's ruling and the rules in the "Races of..." books?

 

[FoxWander]

The word choice, I'm afraid, does make a difference to your argument.

If INA has an effect that enhances etc, your first bolded point can be reworded to read A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon for the purpose of the effect INA has.

If INA grants an effect that enhances etc, your first bolded point can be reworded to read A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon for the purpose of the effect INA grants.

If INA becomes an effect that enhances etc, your first bolded point can be reworded to read A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon for the purpose of the effect INA becomes.

If INA is an effect that enhances etc, your first bolded point can be reworded to read A monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon for the purpose of INA.

The first two would not flow back to the prerequisites - the prerequisites are not a part of the effect INA has, nor the effect INA grants.

The second two would. The prerequisites are part of INA, so if INA becomes an effect, or is an effect, the prerequisites are part of that effect.

The word choice is integral to the point.

-Hyp.

No, I still think the word choice is unrelated to our "problem". None of your forst three slightly different statements is quite right, but mine still is. A better way to state it would be to say what INA does (improving a natural weapon) is the effect. The effect of INA is to improve a natural weapon, so that makes a monk's unarmed strikes 'natural weapons'. and so, for the purpose of INA, a monk’s unarmed strike is treated as a natural weapon.

The prerequisites are seperate from the feat, if only because you must fulfill the prerequisites in order to take the feat. (Which is where your doorman at the club analogy is actually quite good) Considering those prereqs in a vacuum (ie. without looking at the effect of the feat) a monk does not qualify. He may have a +4 BAB, but without any other considerations, by the RAW, he does not have a natural weapon. But the monk is different. You can't judge whether he does or does not have natural weapons without considering what an effect does. If the effect would improve a natural weapon, then the monk does have natural weapons. So if the prereq of that effect is "natural weapon", then the monk has one and can take the feat.

So the 'doorman' of the feat looks at the monk and says "got the +4 BAB, but no natural weapons- sorry, you can't get in."

Then the monk asks "Does being in your club improve natural weapons?", and the doorman says "yes." So, the monk pulls out his special IUS trump card and says "Well then, for the purpose of what's in your club, I do have natural weapons."

The doorman looks his card over carefully, then nods and let's the monk in.