Humanoid Monster Demographics & Use

[S'mon]

I'm wondering how other more simulation-minded DMs approach the use of the variety of differently levelled variants of the common humanoid races. For instance in the original MM, Orcs have:

Orc Raider skirm-3
Orc Drudge min-4
Orc Berserker brute-4
Orc Warrior min-9 (actually a poorly converted min-7 by the look of it)
Orc Chief elite brute-8

Hobgoblins have:
Hobgoblin Grunt min-3
Hobgoblin Soldier sold-3
Hobgoblin archer art-3
Hobgoblin Lieutenant sold-5
Hobgoblin Warrior min-8

Do you use the higher level minions? How do they relate to the low level minions & non minions? Do they represent any kind of reality in your game world? What's a "typical" Orc or Hobgoblin to you? Are the high level minions baseline troops or elite?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, I've used pretty much all of the hobgoblins and several of the orcs.

The hobgoblin level 8 minion was used in some fights around level 6 or so when the PCs were taking on a couple of 'boss' hobgoblins and their various allies. They serve well as a useful stock hobgoblin when the PCs have left the level 4 or so range where the level 3 hobs work fine.

I didn't really use a lot of orcs except in one scenario where the PCs were around level 8. The orc warrior worked well for that, along with a couple of customized orcs and some from later books.

'minion' is really a narrative concept. It is a mechanical device that lets you have fairly insignificant enemies. It doesn't correspond to anything in the logic of the game world except "this guy will lose to this other guy quickly in this scene". There's no tribe of orcs running around with a bunch of them that have glass jaws and make up some special segment of the orc population. The function of orc stat blocks is to make interesting fights with orcs, not to provide input to an orc tribe simulator.

 

[WalterKovacs]

It's quite possible to 'treat' a highish level minion as being basically the 'same' as a lower level normal character experienced later in an adventurers career. So a Hob Warrior is similar to a Hob Soldier in terms of their role. The typical members of the race are probably the lowest level minions ... even then, there are likely groups of non combatants as well. A few rise above that level, to be full blown characters (or high level minions). Elites/Solos being super-special, their races equivalent of a PC, exceptional.

So:

Low level minion - average 'person'
Normal monster - equivalent of militia, military, etc ... those in the society expected to fight (at higher levels, they can become minions to have lots of soldiers in an army, for example)
Elite Monster - A hero, similar to PCs. So leaders and/or exceptional members of society.

Solos wouldn't normally show up within humanoid races unless they are extremely exceptional ... more often it's probably better for solo's to be some kind of 'special' monster (dragon, beholder, hydra, etc) that makes sense to be alone. A powerful big bad that's humanoid makes more sense to have underlings fighting with them, even when they are a solo.

 

[S'mon]

It's quite possible to 'treat' a highish level minion as being basically the 'same' as a lower level normal character experienced later in an adventurers career. So a Hob Warrior is similar to a Hob Soldier in terms of their role. The typical members of the race are probably the lowest level minions ... even then, there are likely groups of non combatants as well. A few rise above that level, to be full blown characters (or high level minions). Elites/Solos being super-special, their races equivalent of a PC, exceptional.

So:

Low level minion - average 'person'
Normal monster - equivalent of militia, military, etc ... those in the society expected to fight (at higher levels, they can become minions to have lots of soldiers in an army, for example)
Elite Monster - A hero, similar to PCs. So leaders and/or exceptional members of society.

Solos wouldn't normally show up within humanoid races unless they are extremely exceptional ... more often it's probably better for solo's to be some kind of 'special' monster (dragon, beholder, hydra, etc) that makes sense to be alone. A powerful big bad that's humanoid makes more sense to have underlings fighting with them, even when they are a solo.

Thanks, this is the kind of input I'm looking for. I'm starting a new sandboxy campaign next month and I need ideas for what creature stats represent beyond a purely 'cinematic narrative' approach. From what you're saying:

Low level minions - basically untrained, equivalent of human commoner peasants & such like the Human Rabble min-2

Low level Standards, high-Heroic minions - warriors, the 'braves', soldiers, and such, human equivalent would be eg the Town Guard sold-3

High-heroic Standards & Elites - champions, war chiefs, 'adventurers' and similar.

That's very helpful - I think that distribution is immanent in the given stats and monster titles in MM, MV et al, but it's really useful for me getting it nailed down a bit.

Edit: It looks from the stat distributions that hobgoblins are very similar to humans in ability, while Orcs are fractionally tougher.

Edit 2: I think having this worked out already would have saved me from some slight mistakes I made in my current Vault of Larin Karr 3e-convesion campaign, such as statting hobgoblin raiders as grunt min-3s (source had them as the basic mook war-1s) when they should logically have been tougher, or at the other end statting an entire tribe orcs as Orc Raider skirm-3s, which made for a grindy fight.

 

[the Jester]

It depends.

In 4e, I'm very much of the school of thought that a low level elite, mid-level standard and high-level minion can all represent the same individual- it's all relative to the pcs.

 

[Zaran]

I've had issues with monsters that I am used to putting together being of different levels. The big one that comes to my head is having Worg Riding Goblins. By the time the PCs can fight worgs, the standard variety goblin is just too weak. I thought that was poor design on the worgs.

I think the designers have gotten better though. They are generally putting groups of monsters with varying roles of the same level instead of dispersing them out 5 levels.

When I do find this, I get out the old Monster Builder and do some tweaks.

 

[Saagael]

It depends.

In 4e, I'm very much of the school of thought that a low level elite, mid-level standard and high-level minion can all represent the same individual- it's all relative to the pcs.

This a thousand times.

Using this is such a powerful tool in storytelling. My players absolutely loved it when they had their butts handed to them at level 9 by a solo blue dragon that escaped, only to return at level 15 and face not only that same dragon as an elite, but two other elite dragons in the same fight, and wipe the floor with them.

EDIT: I'd share some xp with you Jester but apparently I have to spread it around first.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I've had issues with monsters that I am used to putting together being of different levels. The big one that comes to my head is having Worg Riding Goblins. By the time the PCs can fight worgs, the standard variety goblin is just too weak. I thought that was poor design on the worgs.

I think the designers have gotten better though. They are generally putting groups of monsters with varying roles of the same level instead of dispersing them out 5 levels.

When I do find this, I get out the old Monster Builder and do some tweaks.

Yeah, I found the same issue with goblins/worgs, you just can't really use them together effectively. You could make a higher level minion version of a goblin to be a 'worg rider', but you still can't pair them up with the regular goblins too well in a fight.

About the best I could do was make a 'worg rider' stat block (non-minion) and a higher level minion stat block for the goblin warrior. Then at least a party of 5th or whatever level PCs could fight with a mixed group, though the 'infantry' was at that point pretty trivial.

And I totally agree, the old habit they had of taking a monster type and spreading variations of it all over different levels was a bit annoying. I guess in a way it was good if you wanted to have a story arc with that race as the enemy where it would span a bunch of levels, but every encounter basically had to mix in a bunch of some other type of monster to get the roles correct. I think the more traditional "all goblins are low level" mostly worked better. You can still create a few exceptional individuals that are somewhat higher, but you don't really have to. The entire goblin lineup could be basically 1st level in theory and the tougher goblins would just be elites, maybe even being 2nd or 3rd level, but still usable all as a group.

I guess they are doing that more now. At this point in any case compendium has so many variations of every humanoid in it you can almost always find some stat blocks you can use without too much work.

 

[LostSoul]

I use the minions as non-combatants - children, the old, crippled, etc. This means I ignore the high-level minions.

The lower-level monsters are the stock monsters, and the higher-level ones are the leaders, lieutenants, etc. The regular human is represented by Human Rabble 2. This means there's a huge difference between trained warriors and non-combatants; I like that, I think it reinforces the Points of Light concept.

Here's the basic distribution for Hobgoblins (using MV as well):

Every 5 Hobgoblins: 2 battle guards, 3 spear soldiers
Every 10 Hobgoblins: + beast master & 2 guard drakes; + warmonger & 2 archers
Every 20 Hobgoblins: + commander & 2 battle guards; + warcaster

The leader of the tribe ranges from a Fleshcarver (MM2) to a Hand of Bane, depending on its size (actually level, which determines size).

For the "every 5" I like to go with 1 soldier/brute, 2/3 skirmishers, 1/2 artillery - a pretty good basic encounter block. Of course, that changes based on the type of monster.

They have a bunch of allies as well - goblins, bugbears, and beasts (drakes, wolves, bears). Huge or high-level tribes have ogres, ettins, trolls, and the odd oni.

 

[S'mon]

It depends.

In 4e, I'm very much of the school of thought that a low level elite, mid-level standard and high-level minion can all represent the same individual- it's all relative to the pcs.

Yes, I've been doing that, but by preserving the XP value (standard > minion 8 levels higher) I'm finding issues with minions going out-of-tier too fast. From this discussion I'm tending to think that maybe the difference should be more like 5 levels, eg hobgoblin soldier standard-3 equates with hobgoblin warrior min-8 as 'typical trained warriors'.