Humanoid Monster Demographics & Use

[LostSoul]

For kicks, here are two types of lairs: Hobgoblins and Robber Barons.

[sblock=Hoch Jebline]

---------------------------------- HOBGOBLINS ----------------------------------
Groups 			
Every 5 Hobgoblins	2 battle guards, 3 spear soldiers
Every 10 Hobgoblins	+ beast master & 2 guard drakes
			+ warmonger & 2 archers
Every 20 Hobgoblins	+ commander & 2 battle guards
			+ warcaster

Lairs
(01-20) Village 	Ditch, Rampart, Palisade 	
			2 gates, 3-6 watchtowers
Non-Combatants 		+450% Hobgoblin Grunts	
Every 50 hobs		+2 Hvy Catapults, 2 Lt Catapult, 1 Ballista
(21-00) Underground	
Non-Combatants 		+450% Hobgoblin Grunts

---------- Level & Population --------
# Appearing	Level	Leader		Allies (cumulative)
15		1	Fleshcarver	+1d8 goblin cutthroats
					+1d8 goblin beast riders & gray wolves
15		2	Fleshcarver	+1d8 gray wolves
					+1d8 guard drakes
15		3	Fleshcarver	+1d3 goblin hex hurlers
					+1d6 spitting drakes
					+1d6 crocodiles
20		4	Fleshcarver	--

25		5	Hand of Bane	+1 fleshcarver
30		6	Hand of Bane	+1 fleshcarver
					+2d6 bugbear thugs
60		7	Hand of Bane	+1 fleshcarver
					+1 human transmuter
					+2 ogre hunters
					+2d8 bugbear backstabbers
					+1d8 dire wolves
					+1d8 rage drakes
					+1d6 bears
80		8	Hand of Bane	+1d10 ogres
140		9	Hand of Bane	+1d6 ogre hunters
					+1d4 ettin thugs
					+1d4 trolls
					+1d4 trained owlbears
200		10	Hand of Bane	+1d6 ogre mercenaries
					+1d4 tiefling occultists
					+1 oni mage

[/sblock]

[sblock=Raubritters]

-------------------------------- ROBBER BARONS ---------------------------------
GROUPS
Every 5 soldiers	3 human guards, 2 human crossbowmen
Every 10 soldiers	+ human noble & horse
Every 20 soldiers	+ human cavalier & warhorse

------ LAIRS ------	
1d100	Lair Type	+ 500% peasants (human rabble)
			+ 2d6 horses
			+ 1d6 warhorses
01-25	Stone Tower	+ dunjon
			+ aerie
26-75	Manor House	+ wooden palisade & gatehouse
76-00	Keep		+ 1d4 towers & ballista or catapaults

--------- Level & Population --------
# Appearing	Level	Leader			Allies (cumulative)
20		1	Cavalier & griffon	+ 4 guards (bodyguards)	
25		2	Cavalier & griffon	+ 1d6 bloodseeker drakes  
30		3	Cavalier & griffon	+ 1 human mage		  
35		4	Cavalier & griffon	+ 2 human javelin dancers 
40		5	Cavalier & griffon	--
60		6	Cavalier & griffon	+ 1d10 dragonborn soldiers
80		7	Cavalier & griffon	+ 1 human knife fighter    
						+ 1d12 human slavers	   
100		8	Cavalier & griffon	+ 1 dire beast hunter	
						+ 1 dire wolf		
160		9	Cavalier & griffon	+ 3 human transmuters
						+ 1d6 human duelists
						+ 1d6 trained owlbears
						+ 1d10 hippogriffs	
220		10	Cavalier & griffon	+ human gladiator

[/sblock]

The # Appearing line only refers to the "Every 5", so 200 hobgoblins are really quite a bit more than that. The allies are there to round out XP calculations and for more variance.

What's missing are tables of motivations. I could just have one but it would be better to tailor them to specific monster types...

 

[On Puget Sound]

I would place my fixed number of hobgoblins on the map. If low level players meet them, they encounter level 3 standard monsters. If higher level players meet them, the hobgoblins are level 9 minions. Same monsters, same xp value, but mechanically the level 8 minions will play better vs higher level players. The only time this is likely to be an issue is if your party has a wide level range, e.g. 2nd and 7th level PCs adventuring together.

 

[S'mon]

I don't know about the flatter power curve. I suppose a party of 8th level PCs would have trouble with a mass of 200 level 1 monsters, at least in a worse case scenario. I doubt they'd have any trouble at all in a case where they exercised even modest strategy.

Assuming the 200 1st levellers have a decent mix of meleers, artillery, controllers, elite leaders etc I'd think they win a stand-up drag-out fight against an 8th level party; one problem for the PCs would be that Controllers have trouble quickly killing even low level standard monsters en-masse. And using the RAW, the 200 can fire through each other, so potentially 200 ranged attacks/round vs the PCs, which is average 10 crits.

I think what would most likely actually happen in this case is that the PCs would encounter them, fight for a long time, kill a bunch, retreat, level up from the excessive XP, and return several times to finish them.

 

[S'mon]

I would place my fixed number of hobgoblins on the map. If low level players meet them, they encounter level 3 standard monsters. If higher level players meet them, the hobgoblins are level 9 minions. Same monsters, same xp value, but mechanically the level 8 minions will play better vs higher level players. The only time this is likely to be an issue is if your party has a wide level range, e.g. 2nd and 7th level PCs adventuring together.

Level 3 standards have the XP of 11th level minions, but I'm tending to think now that turning them into Level 8 minions is a better approach. I think it makes better world-sense that paragon minions represent 'elite mooks'.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Assuming the 200 1st levellers have a decent mix of meleers, artillery, controllers, elite leaders etc I'd think they win a stand-up drag-out fight against an 8th level party; one problem for the PCs would be that Controllers have trouble quickly killing even low level standard monsters en-masse. And using the RAW, the 200 can fire through each other, so potentially 200 ranged attacks/round vs the PCs, which is average 10 crits.

Yeah, no players with even the smallest amount of savvy are going to let that happen. You could dupe them into it or just spring it on them of course, but I doubt that's the idea. It is also rather difficult to come up with a scenario where 200 of anything has LoS to the party, aside from a largely featureless plain.

I think what would most likely actually happen in this case is that the PCs would encounter them, fight for a long time, kill a bunch, retreat, level up from the excessive XP, and return several times to finish them.

Right, so that begs the question of why create the formulaic 'tribe' in the first place vs creating specific interesting encounters which reflect various interactions with a group/community of monsters? Often much effort can be saved, I don't need to define a whole lot of random tables to tell me what an orc patrol might be like. I can simply make up the ONE orc patrol the party will actually meet.

 

[On Puget Sound]

The "20 always hits" rule becomes very important when dealing with very large numbers of combatants, if you treat them as individuals rather than swarms or "units" or something.
Back in 3.5, we used massed mooks twice against two different GMs who didn't quite get statistics:

When a dragon threatened a city, and everyone knew it was coming in a few days (the city had angered it), our party purchased and distributed 5000 crossbows. Statistically, that is 250 x 1d10 or about 1,375 points of damage. Followed by a move action to reload.

When the kraken surfaced for its monthly tribute and sacrificial victims, the city that had placated it for years had added a new twist to the ceremony. On one of the viewing galleries was a choir to sing its praises, 200 children in ornate robes with sheet music..... make that 200 apprentices from the College of Magic with Magic Missile scrolls. No 20s needed here; MM always hits. Dead kraken.

 

[S'mon]

Yeah, no players with even the smallest amount of savvy are going to let that happen. You could dupe them into it or just spring it on them of course, but I doubt that's the idea. It is also rather difficult to come up with a scenario where 200 of anything has LoS to the party, aside from a largely featureless plain.

"THIS. IS. SPARTA!!!!"

 

[LostSoul]

Right, so that begs the question of why create the formulaic 'tribe' in the first place vs creating specific interesting encounters which reflect various interactions with a group/community of monsters?

Well, in my game:

• It puts pressure on player decisions.
• It allows for strategic decisions as well as tactical ones.
• It removes DM bias.
• It saves time.

 

[aco175]

I have always upped the level of low level monsters by 5-6 levels to turn them into minions. I guess mostly to keep the realism of the world intact. When at 1st level you wrnt to the valley of fire beetles and had a hard time with them, but at 6th level they become more a nusence and the real threat in the valley is the challenge. It would not make sence if you went back to the valley and never seen a fire beetle.

 

[S'mon]

I have always upped the level of low level monsters by 5-6 levels to turn them into minions. I guess mostly to keep the realism of the world intact. When at 1st level you wrnt to the valley of fire beetles and had a hard time with them, but at 6th level they become more a nusence and the real threat in the valley is the challenge. It would not make sence if you went back to the valley and never seen a fire beetle.

I'm thinking about the possibility of a formal 5-level "demi tier" structure, where elites > standards > minions each 5 levels higher. This seems to fit the monsters well - certainly the higher-level minions in the original MM are almost always 1 demi-tier above the base standard monster; 8th level Ogre standards > 14th level Ogre Thugs, for instance. It means that "normal creature" trained-warrior minions stay in the upper Heroic tier, 6th-10th, which I like; it makes more intuitive sense that a Paragon minion should be some kind of 'elite mook'.