Humanoids

[Roman]

That's correct .

I think most of the D&D races are just born from the need for monsters of different HD in the "good old times" when monsters did not advance in levels/HD. The question with the PC races has already been answered, with Tolkien as the source for the blueprint of all of them (except gnomes). In mythology, elfs, dwarfs, gnomes, brownies and goblins are all the same. The terms are used interchangeably. Nordic mythology basically knows only elfs and trolls as big archetypes.

Interesting... may I ask what were elves and trolls in nordic mythology like?

 

[Turjan]

Interesting... may I ask what were elves and trolls in nordic mythology like?

Well, to tell the truth, even here the borders are more or less fluent .

In principle, from old germanic myths you have already different worlds for frost giants (Niflheim), fire giants (Muspellsheim), other giants (Jötunheim), light elfs (Alfheim), and dark elfs (Svartalfheim). Light elfs were more or less beautiful transparent beings, whereas svartalfar are bearded beings living under the earth and known for the smithing (basically dwarves). In stories regarding human experiences, it's the dwarves (svartalfar) or a jotne (troll) that make an appearance. As I said, the borders are fluent, so sometimes a female troll resembles a dwarf or a male troll resembles a giant, but as troll is thought to be derived from "strong", the giant connection seems to be more appropriate. Later, trolls are more or less connected to forms found in nature (like large rocks), and the idea of trolls hurling big stones or turning to stone themselves are common.

Elfs looked more or less like humans, often with beards, sometimes small (3 feet) and sometimes the same size as humans, but the main difference to humans was that the elfs were connected with magic. Smithing was a magical occupation to the nordic mind, so here the relation to dwarfs is obvious. The mixing of the terms "elf" and "dwarf" is also obvious in sagas like those of the Nibelung; the king of those subterranean dwarfs was called "Alberich", "Alfric" or "Elfric".

In Iceland, even today roads might be built along funny routes, because nobody wants to be responsible for removing a large rock where the elfs live in .

 

[Roman]

Well, to tell the truth, even here the borders are more or less fluent .

Fair enough - it is not as if one can expect myths to be consistent with almost scientific precision after all.

In principle, from old germanic myths you have already different worlds for frost giants (Niflheim), fire giants (Muspellsheim), other giants (Jötunheim), light elfs (Alfheim), and dark elfs (Svartalfheim). Light elfs were more or less beautiful transparent beings, whereas svartalfar are bearded beings living under the earth and known for the smithing (basically dwarves). In stories regarding human experiences, it's the dwarves (svartalfar) or a jotne (troll) that make an appearance. As I said, the borders are fluent, so sometimes a female troll resembles a dwarf or a male troll resembles a giant, but as troll is thought to be derived from "strong", the giant connection seems to be more appropriate. Later, trolls are more or less connected to forms found in nature (like large rocks), and the idea of trolls hurling big stones or turning to stone themselves are common.

Very interesting indeed - so that's where the inconsistency between a couple of stories I have heard featuring tiny trolls and Tolkien's massive trolls that turn to stone in sunlight and the still different D&D trolls comes in.

Elfs looked more or less like humans, often with beards, sometimes small (3 feet) and sometimes the same size as humans, but the main difference to humans was that the elfs were connected with magic. Smithing was a magical occupation to the nordic mind, so here the relation to dwarfs is obvious. The mixing of the terms "elf" and "dwarf" is also obvious in sagas like those of the Nibelung; the king of those subterranean dwarfs was called "Alberich", "Alfric" or "Elfric".

In Iceland, even today roads might be built along funny routes, because nobody wants to be responsible for removing a large rock where the elfs live in .

Thanks for the intriguing info.

 

[Roman]

trog·lo·dyte ( P ) Pronunciation Key (trgl-dt)
n.

1. A member of a fabulous or prehistoric race of people that lived in caves, dens, or holes.
2. A person considered to be reclusive, reactionary, out of date, or brutish.

3. An anthropoid ape, such as a gorilla or chimpanzee.
4. An animal that lives underground, as an ant or a worm.

Don't know about Locathahs.

Thanks - that leaves us with the following humanoids that have thus far a completely unknown mythical origin:

Lizardmen
Locathahs
Merfolk
Bugbears, Hobgoblins, Blues and other (if any) 'Goblinoids' that are not actually Goblins - of these, especially intriguing would be the origin of Bugbears and Blues, since Hobgoblins probably have the same origin as goblins due to the similarity of the name

Hmm, I also notice that the Monster Manual has the Gythyanki and Githzerai as humanoid races - do these have any mythical basis at all or are they purely created for D&D?

 

[xazil]

Hmm, I also notice that the Monster Manual has the Gythyanki and Githzerai as humanoid races - do these have any mythical basis at all or are they purely created for D&D?

I think the Gith were created for DnD and first appeared in the original Fiend Folio.

As a side note about the Monsterous Humanoid, Humanoid and Giant part. Goliaths from Races of Stone are 1HD Monsterous Humanoids, while the almost identical Half-Giants are 1HD Giants.

 

[Roman]

I think the Gith were created for DnD and first appeared in the original Fiend Folio.

I see - thanks.

As a side note about the Monsterous Humanoid, Humanoid and Giant part. Goliaths from Races of Stone are 1HD Monsterous Humanoids, while the almost identical Half-Giants are 1HD Giants.

Good point and it makes my head hurt!

 

[Roman]

Oh, how could I forget?! How about Hobbits/Halflings - did they originate with Tolkien or did they have prior basis in myths and legends?

 

[Ferret]

I can't think of any, they may simpley be the idea of half-elves when the elves are taken as 3 foot mischeivious fairies.... Just guessing.


I'm not entirly sure but the humanoids all seem to lead themselves to an organized (not nesscessarily lawful) society or life. But that doesn't hold up to well.

Giants AFAICR, are humanoids with loads of strength.

 

[Roman]

Hmm, what about Ogres, Ogre Mages and Ettins? And how about the other types of Giants (apart from the Fire Giants and Frost Giants both of whom Turjan has already mentioned as being in the Norse myths).

 

[xazil]

Hmm, what about Ogres, Ogre Mages and Ettins? And how about the other types of Giants (apart from the Fire Giants and Frost Giants both of whom Turjan has already mentioned as being in the Norse myths).

I am not sure about Ogres or Ettins but would guess they are both culled from general folklore on big brutish man like creatures that generally like eating people.

Ogre Mages look very much like the oriental Oni with a westernized name.