D&D 5E (2024) Hunter's Mark, Hex, and the illusive balance

[ECMO3]

I think the best solution is not "fixing" the spells, but instead get rid of class/subclass abilities tied to specific spells.

 

[Selas]

You realize that "You realize" is a pretty rude way to start a reply, it immediately puts me on the defensive. I was there, Gandalf. I loved seeing the change back during the playtests and tried it out in my game.

The bonus action and the spell slot are still the cost. Paladin can already stack Divine Favor and Smites and I don't hear that being a problem (probably because paladins don't regularly rock 4-5 attacks a round). Everyone doesn't dip Paladin to get Divine Smite, which has the same bonus action and spell slot cost. Smite spells are all over various spell lists. I'm also not as concerned about level dips in my games, as my players don't really do them.

Personally, I'd rather have Hex, Hunter's Mark, and Smite all be class features for identity protection. But I haven't been able to figure out a way of tying balancing them against Smite's damage without turning them into smites.

You're right; there's a whole other reasons why people dip Paladin, and it's not just Divine Favor or Smites...but that's neither here nor there.

Here's the thing: these spell versions you came up with have the same issue as the official ones: why should I cast them over other spells? Your versions are actually worse, because not only are they once per turn, but they're basically a one time deal since it can't be transferred. So I just wasted a 5th level on an even more mediocre spell that only allows me to target one creature per cast in exchange for an increased duration that's irrelevant and a slight bump in dpr. Honestly, I rather cast Bestow Curse over this.

If you want a fix, the best suggestion i've seen floating around is to remove concentration in exchange for a 1-minute duration like the Goolock Create Thrall feature. This can be a level-gated feature for Ranger and for Warlock a leveled Invocation, though for Hexblade it should be baked in. This gives a reason to cast it and also prevents low level dips

 

[Tessarael]

Xeviat, I think if you made it a non-concentration non-spell class feature, then what you are proposing would make more sense. With the scaling by class level, not character level.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

Hunter's Mark with Concentration is fine, power-wise. The complaint is that people want to be able to benefit from Hunter's Mark while they are concentrating on other spells. But they don't need that. There are enough free castings of Hunter's Mark that it can be dropped to cast a different Concentration spell. And it's too powerful to have Hunter's Mark stack with other damage Concentration spells.

 

[Remathilis]

You could fix a lot of these problems by removing multiclassing...

 

[evilbob]

But it's not a nerf, it's actually a boost for the EB warlock.

Your versions are nerfs, sorry. I would never cast them. Bonus action + spell slot for 1d6 damage and that's it? Monsters die too fast; you'll never get value out of this.

If you think they're overpowered, limiting to 1/round is fine. That's still a big nerf but they might warrant it. Removing concentration - even in addition to 1/round limit - is a buff IMO.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Hunter's Mark and Hex are the hot topics of this week due to the new horror subclasses UA having Ranger and Warlock subclasses that heavily use these spells in subclass features. People keep asking if removing concentration from these spells would be the fix, but I think more needs to be done.

Lets compare Hunters Mark/Hex to another class ability in spell form: Divine Smite. Divine smite is a bonus action to tack on 1d8 + 1d8/spell level damage on a hit (with added potential +1d8 against undead and fiends, and an added doubling for crit fishers). It takes an average of 2.57 hits with Hunter's Mark/Hex to equal smite's typical damage, so it's better with 3 hits and weaker with 2 hits.

But since Hunter's Mark/Hex last an hour with concentration, and longer with higher level spells, they can add significantly more damage. But, keeping up a Hex for the whole day locks you out of other concentration spells. On top of that, most smites don't have concentration anymore.

So how could we balance these while staying in 5.24's "everything is a spell" structure? I think I've glimpsed the solution, but I want to know how y'all feel. This takes some ideas from the One D&D playtest version of these spells and takes them a little further. So here's my version of Hex and Hunter's Mark:

HEX
1st-Level Enchantment Spell (Warlock)
(why is this enchantment and not necromancy? Bestow curse is necromancy...)
Casting Time: Bonus Action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V, S, M (the petrified eye of a newt)
Duration: 1 hour
You place a curse on a creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Necrotic damage to the target the first time you hit it with an attack roll on any turn. Also, choose one ability when you cast the spell. The target has Disadvantage on ability checks made with the chosen ability.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell
using a spell slot of 3rd or 4th level, the spell's duration changes to 8 hours, and the extra damage increases to 2d6. When you use a spell slot of 5th level or higher, the spell's duration changes to 24 hours, and the extra damage increases to 3d6.

HUNTER’S MARK
1st-Level Divination Spell (Ranger)
Casting Time: Bonus Action
Range: 90 feet
Components: V
Duration: 1 hour
You choose one creature you can see within
range and magically mark it as your quarry. Until the spell ends, you deal an extra 1d6 Force damage to the target the first time you hit it with an attack roll on any turn. You also have Advantage on any Wisdom (Perception or Survival) check you make to find it.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell
using a spell slot of 3rd or 4th level, the spell's duration changes to 8 hours, and the extra damage increases to 2d6. When you use a spell slot of 5th level or higher, the spell's duration changes to 24 hours, and the extra damage increases to 3d6.

These versions have 4 fundamental differences, and I think all three of these improve them in feel and gameplay.

1. No concentration. This means they only compete with other spells through costing a spell slots, just like Divine Smite.
2. The damage is once per round. This reduces the gap between standard and optimal builds, and makes it easier to balance with Two-Weapon Fighting and other options. Interestingly, as you gain more attacks, your chance of getting the damage each round goes up (1 attack at 65% becomes two attacks for 87.75%, 3 is 98.5%, and 4 is 99.8%).
3. The damage scales with spell higher level spell slots, just like Divine Smite. Interestingly, 2d8 to 1d6 is 2.57 hits; 4d8 for a 3rd level smite to 2d6 is still 2.57, and 6d8 for a 5th level smite to 3d6 is still 2.57. It's almost like someone did math!
4. You can no longer recast it on different targets when the target dies.

This means Hex and Hunter's Mark will be spells you will wait to use on bigger threats, ones you think have a lot of HP and will take a while to bring down. If combat goes to 3 rounds, they're better than smite. It also means the secondary effect gains some more importance, or at least is highlighted a bit, as no concentration means you might tag someone with Hunter's Mark just to follow them.

But since the target dying and the spell ending prematurely can create some weird actions at the table (like the ranger or warlock not wanting the other party members to attack their target so they can maximize their damage gained), getting a benny when the target drops to 0 HP would be good.

Warlocks can get back their pact boon from 4E (the Fiend Warlock already has it kind of). Each patron would grant a different benefit when you reduce a hexed target to 0 HP, but this would feel better for a class ability version so you aren't so limited in its use.

Rangers could get something too, like Heroic Advantage for completing a hunt? This is where I begin to question the idea.

Alternatively, both could be simplified by having the damage bonus apply once. You Hex or Hunter's Mark the target, it suffers disadvantage on ability checks with one ability or you gain advantage on Wisdom (Perception or Survival) checks to notice or track them, and then you gain +2d8 damage the first time you hit them with an attack roll. Boom. Damage. That could feel like a Hunter's Mark: you line up your shot and bang. But I think I like the extra damage once per round more, as it does give it its own niche of bei
ng great against solos.

What do you think?

I think that you could increase the damage die size, since it can’t switch targets.

Or give a juicier secondary benefit like crit on 19 or even just “know all resistences immunities and vulnerabilities” for HM, and Hex could also deals damage when the target fails a saving throw.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Hunter's Mark with Concentration is fine, power-wise. The complaint is that people want to be able to benefit from Hunter's Mark while they are concentrating on other spells. But they don't need that. There are enough free castings of Hunter's Mark that it can be dropped to cast a different Concentration spell. And it's too powerful to have Hunter's Mark stack with other damage Concentration spells.

It’s not that powerful.

It’s literally gonna be multiple bonus actions, concentration, and a spell slot for 2-4 d6s of extra damage over the course of a fight.

My group stopped using it altogether in the old rules. The 2024 Ranger relies on it as a cornerstone feature. A cornerstone feature shouldn’t make a majority of the class spell list unusable most of the day.

Having HM up between fights or while tracking shouldn’t make it so you can’t cast pass without trace or any other concentration utility spell, and the Ranger does in fact need an avenue to “blow everything” when needed, which it lacks.

Even removing C from Ensaring Strike and some other combat spells would do the trick in combat, but it doesn’t make it suck any less out of combat.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

Hunter's Mark with Concentration is fine, power-wise. The complaint is that people want to be able to benefit from Hunter's Mark while they are concentrating on other spells. But they don't need that. There are enough free castings of Hunter's Mark that it can be dropped to cast a different Concentration spell. And it's too powerful to have Hunter's Mark stack with other damage Concentration spells.

Divine Favor at 1d4 per hit is weak enough to not require Concentration, but then Hunter's Mark at 1d6 per hit is too powerful to stack with other damage Concentration spells. There's nothing contradictory here but 1 extra damage per hit seems like an awfully small delta to confidently draw the line between too weak / too powerful.

Maybe a good homebrew modification of Hunter's Mark would be to allow the Ranger to choose when they cast the spell, between either 1d6 damage with Concentration or 1d4 damage but no Concentration. I kind of like that idea but I dunno

 

[Xeviat]

Xeviat, I think if you made it a non-concentration non-spell class feature, then what you are proposing would make more sense. With the scaling by class level, not character level.

Trouble is I haven't found the magic bullet for making it a balanced class feature that feels good enough. I deeply feel the spell slot requirement is needed when comparing to Paladin. It's okay for rangers to out damage paladins a little since paladins get lay on hands instead, but that balance changes when rangers get tireless and then paladins get radiant strikes.