Hydra Combat Reflexes question

[Bill Muench]

I vote this one (#3). It's the only one that's not outright silly for gameplay purposes.

I agree. Otherwise a CR 4 hydra could get 15 attacks in one round at +6 for 1d10+3. That's ridiculous. Hydras are under CR'ed as it is without allowing that.

 

[mikebr99]

I agree. Otherwise a CR 4 hydra could get 15 attacks in one round at +6 for 1d10+3. That's ridiculous. Hydras are under CR'ed as it is without allowing that.

Is that some kind of new math??

A CR4 hydra is a 5 headed one... it has a DEX of 12 (+1), and combat reflexes.

That means it gets 2 AoOs per round... and each AoO can be comprised of up to 5 attacks (based on how many heads are remaining).

Mike

 

[glass]

Is that some kind of new math??

A CR4 hydra is a 5 headed one... it has a DEX of 12 (+1), and combat reflexes.

That means it gets 2 AoOs per round... and each AoO can be comprised of up to 5 attacks (based on how many heads are remaining).

Which makes 10, plus five bite on its own go gives 15!

Seems like the standard kind of maths to me.


glass.

 

[glass]

Well, a Hydra with DEX of 28 and combat reflexes would have 10 AoOs in a round... and each individual AoO could be comprised of up to 8 attacks (one from each head remaining).

Obviously, that is how it works if you believe that option 2 is correct. However, I was (quite clearly, I thought) talking about what would happen under option 3.


glass.

 

[Scion]

I agree. Otherwise a CR 4 hydra could get 15 attacks in one round at +6 for 1d10+3. That's ridiculous. Hydras are under CR'ed as it is without allowing that.

hmm.. my current party is level 4. We are mainly close combat types, with no real range attackers just yet.

If our parties main melee brute moved up he would provoke an aoo with 5 attacks, each would hit around 35% of the time, and even if all of them hit he would still be in the running. He would get his single attack in and since the hydra has a pretty piddly ac would most likely hit. Next round the hyrda would attack, chances of killing the melee brute are nearly 0, at which point the melee brute does a full round of attacking and probably takes off around half of its life.

So, one on one with the melee brute in our party it would probably be even money either way. This is 'without' anyone else in the party doing 'anything' (besides the marshal providing his DR boost ).

If the party was much more on the ranged combat side the battle would be over before it even began.

At level 3 it would probably be a slaughter of what our party was, and at level 5 we might not even notice that it was there (two people are getting might bows sometime this level). So CR 4 doesnt sound too horrible, even with the massive aoo it can take. I figure that is the only reason that it 'might be' CR 4 in the first place actually.

 

[dcollins]

The preceding, another helpful message from the Everything in the Entire Game is Underpowered and Must Be Power-Inflated Committee.

 

[Scion]

The preceding, another helpful message from the Everything in the Entire Game is Underpowered and Must Be Power-Inflated Committee.

So where do I report 'abuse for no reason other than just to be surly' to moderaters anyway?

My post before stated that hydras seem fine where they are, when allowed his big aoo trick. As it is really his only trick.

For as much as in game experience is worth that would be mine, at CR 4 a single decent melee grunt could stand toe to toe and, while probably loseing in the end, doing a great deal of damage. Pretty close to being a tie.

While the melee grunt in my party is pretty strong (str 19) and well built for his element, I would expect most parties of level four to be able to give this guy a run for his money. Sounds like a decent CR 4.

 

[Bill Muench]

hmm.. my current party is level 4. We are mainly close combat types, with no real range attackers just yet.

If our parties main melee brute moved up he would provoke an aoo with 5 attacks, each would hit around 35% of the time, and even if all of them hit he would still be in the running. He would get his single attack in and since the hydra has a pretty piddly ac would most likely hit. Next round the hyrda would attack, chances of killing the melee brute are nearly 0, at which point the melee brute does a full round of attacking and probably takes off around half of its life.

So, one on one with the melee brute in our party it would probably be even money either way. This is 'without' anyone else in the party doing 'anything' (besides the marshal providing his DR boost ).

If the party was much more on the ranged combat side the battle would be over before it even began.

At level 3 it would probably be a slaughter of what our party was, and at level 5 we might not even notice that it was there (two people are getting might bows sometime this level). So CR 4 doesnt sound too horrible, even with the massive aoo it can take. I figure that is the only reason that it 'might be' CR 4 in the first place actually.

As dcollins says, just because your party doesn't have a problem with it doesn't mean that it isn't overpowered for its CR. Just about any party can take town a creature whose CR = their level. Afterall, any one of those PCs is an equal CR encounter for the monster, so it is just about even. Add in 3 more PCs and it won't be a big deal. And a CR 4 monster for a party of 4th level characters shouldn't be. But against 3rd level or 2nd level characters, the CR 4 Hydra will wipe them out thanks to 2 things: huge number of attacks and its fast healing 15.

If your main melee brute can take down the hydra without breaking a sweat, I've got to think 2 things simply based on my own personal experience: he isn't a 25-point character, and he probably has more than 5400 gp in gear.

Personally, if your brute charged my hydra I'd attempt to trip him with my AoO. If he then goes to stand up, I'd take all my AoOs (going by the 2 AoO's per round, each of which is comprised of 5 attacks theory). I'd still be out of his reach unless he has a reach weapon. I'd then full attack him and move away, forcing him to come to me again and repeating my tactic.

(And to head off the comments, I know they only have an Int of 2. But so do wolves and other creatures who move in and attack and then move out again and use rudimentary tactics.)

 

[Scion]

As dcollins says, just because your party doesn't have a problem with it doesn't mean that it isn't overpowered for its CR.

Point in fact, he said no such thing. He was merely spaming to no purpose.

In addition, I made sure to say my perspective was coming from gaming experience, which I know some people dont really care about. Hence why I put it forward first.

Just about any party can take town a creature whose CR = their level. Afterall, any one of those PCs is an equal CR encounter for the monster, so it is just about even. Add in 3 more PCs and it won't be a big deal. And a CR 4 monster for a party of 4th level characters shouldn't be. But against 3rd level or 2nd level characters, the CR 4 Hydra will wipe them out thanks to 2 things: huge number of attacks and its fast healing 15.

Which is exactly what I said, so why your comments against it? I said that for my party it would be exactly a CR 4. If we had met it at level 3 then it would have probably slaughtered us, and at level 5 we would have barely noticed.

So we said the exact same thing, in pretty much the exact same way, and yet my example is bad and yours is fine?

If your main melee brute can take down the hydra without breaking a sweat, I've got to think 2 things simply based on my own personal experience: he isn't a 25-point character, and he probably has more than 5400 gp in gear.

Actually, the character in question is standard array with some slight modifications. Effectively making it around 28-30 point buy. And he only has one piece of magical equipment, it increases his speed. (total gear value < 3k)

As for 'not breaking a sweat' I would have to say my line about him probably dieing certainly doesnt qualify. But, I made the example useing our best brute, and with minimal help from the party. Seems like a valid way to go to me.

Although I had overlooked the fast healing aspect. But then, I also neglected the other party members doing anything besides standing there and watching, so that should be fine as well.

Personally, if your brute charged my hydra I'd attempt to trip him with my AoO. If he then goes to stand up, I'd take all my AoOs (going by the 2 AoO's per round, each of which is comprised of 5 attacks theory). I'd still be out of his reach unless he has a reach weapon. I'd then full attack him and move away, forcing him to come to me again and repeating my tactic.

(And to head off the comments, I know they only have an Int of 2. But so do wolves and other creatures who move in and attack and then move out again and use rudimentary tactics.)

Umm.. yeah.. those are a bit beyond 'rudimentary' tactics, but still. The hydras have some nice abilities no doubt. But then, I simply rushed the melee brute in with no thought either. So, with neither useing any form of tactics the hydra is going to be hurting a lot. If one uses some form of tactics (and one would assume that having an int of 2 would make it so that the party could come up with better tactics) then they should both be able to.

Grunt vs grunt, no tactics, for some parties it is a cake walk at level 4, others would have some serious issues (tpk even possible).

Party vs monster, tactics both sides, the same as above applies. Cake walk for some, tpk for others.

Where the balance point is at depends on the campaign and the group. But, like I have said twice now, for my group it definately feels like CR 4 when it uses its aoo's with all of its heads . That is all I said earlier, that is all I am saying now.

So dcollins can have his snide, and useless, remarks if he likes. They serve no purpose and should not be placed in any thread.

The rules aspect seems confused (as hypersmurf has even said) at that point that is what playtesting is for, to see what is balanced enough to use in a given campaign. Hey, look at that, I said what would be balanced in the one I am in.



So, again, it looks like a valid CR 4 for the game I am in, if the aoo's are used in sort of a bulk attack. That seems to be its main feature for offense. It is only a melee brute and nothing else after all.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It's hardly being surly for the reason of being surly. Though I might have been more polite about it, your assertion in the previous post strikes me as patently ridiculous too.

What AC and how many hit points does your fourth level melee brute have that he can withstand 10 attacks at +6 for 1d10+3 in a single round?

My own experience of what is typical for fourth level melee brutes is something like AC 20 (+1 fullplate, +1 dex) with a greatsword or AC 22 (+1 fullplate, +1 large shield) with a longsword and 36 hit points. A barbarian melee brute would usually have an AC of 17-18 (+1 chain shirt, +2 dex, +1 ring of protection, etc) a greatsword and 41 hit points. If you're doing significantly better than those, you're either using characters built on significantly more than 36 points, or you have significantly more treasure than is assumed for a 4th level party or both.

Either of these characters is going to have trouble with the hydra.

The AC 22 fighter is likely to take about 11 points of damage per 5-headl attack.
The AC 20 fighter will take an average of 15 points of damage per 5-head attack.
The AC 17 barbarian will take an average of 21 points of damage per 5-head attack.
If he rages and goes down to AC 15 (big mistake), he'll take about 26 points of damage per 5-head attack.

So, under the one attack with each head per opportunity interpretation, the barbarian will be unconscious at the end of the first round (on average)--dead if he raged. The AC 20 fighter will be at six hit points at the end of round 1. Dead if the hydra gets another full attack. The AC 22 fighter will be at 14 hit points but unless he has the sunder feat, the hydra will eat him for lunch since he can only do a little bit more damage per round than the hydra can heal (fast healing 5) and if he attempts to sunder the hydra's heads even once, he'll be down to 3 hit points. If he just attacks the body, he'll be at three hit points after the hydra's second action and dead after the hydra's third action.

Now, you will say, that's just one character--the other characters can help out too. Glad you pointed it out. Let's assume an AC 20 melee brute with greatsword and fullplate, a barbarian, a wizard, and a cleric to help out. In round 1, the melee brute takes an AoO and an attack and is brought to six hit points. The barbarian moves in, takes 21 points of damage from the AoOs, rages and attacks. The cleric casts spiritual weapon and the wizard hits it with a flamings sphere or something like that. In round 2, the creature attacks the barbarian, dropping him unconscious. The fighter attacks again, the wizard magic missiles the beast and targets it with the flaming sphere again. The cleric moves up and takes an AoO (which probably deals 18 points of damage or so) and casts defensively hoping to save the barbarian. In round 3, the fighter attacks the creature, it attacks him back (and drops him to -7 or so), the cleric pulls out a mace and attacks the hydra, the wizard burns it with the sphere and magic missiles it again, and the barbarian attacks from prone killing it.

Now, of course, the fight could go much better (the hydra misses an inordinate number of times or rolls minimum damage every time it hits) or much worse than that (the hydra rolls 3 hits for close to max damage and drops the fighter on the AoO) but either way, that could not reasonably be described as a breeze. It could reasonably be described as using nearly all of the party's resources. (In order to heal from the battle, the party will need to use scrolls or a wand because the cleric will be lucky to heal one of the characters if he uses all his remaining spells). Using the attack with each head on every opportunity model, this fight is much closer to an EL 6 or EL 7 for the APL 4 party. (Of course, it wouldn't provide much challenge at all to the 6th or 7th level party unless their main brute is a barbarian). On the other hand, using the one attack using a single distinct head per opportunity (max AoOs=number of heads) model, the fight is much less challenging and could reasonably be described as a CR 4 encounter that will use something like 25% of the party's resources.

So where do I report 'abuse for no reason other than just to be surly' to moderaters anyway?

My post before stated that hydras seem fine where they are, when allowed his big aoo trick. As it is really his only trick.

For as much as in game experience is worth that would be mine, at CR 4 a single decent melee grunt could stand toe to toe and, while probably loseing in the end, doing a great deal of damage. Pretty close to being a tie.

While the melee grunt in my party is pretty strong (str 19) and well built for his element, I would expect most parties of level four to be able to give this guy a run for his money. Sounds like a decent CR 4.