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Hydra question (2003 thread)
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Dakhran the Dark
First Post
Actually, I find the hydra rather disappointing, even if you use the strongest of interpretations. I ran a twelve-headed hydra against a 10th level party, and it barely lasted two rounds. Granted, the party is larger than average (six to eight players show at any session, with six showing for this combat). But my party quite rightly judged it to be a slow creature with no ranged combat capabilities, and kept out of its reach most of the fight. When it did get a chance to charge and close, the characters in question were either well-armored, or had protection (ring of blinking). With the archery-focused fighter raining down massive death, it was almost dead the first round, and the fast healing didn't help much.
Furthermore, one of the PCs is a shadowdancer with a shadow ally, and hydras seem to lose their effectiveness when faced with an incorporeal foe that drains 1d6 STR on a touch attack at AC 9. By the time it was capable of bringing a twelve-head barrage against any players, it had a STR of 3...but that's a different rant for another thread...
Furthermore, one of the PCs is a shadowdancer with a shadow ally, and hydras seem to lose their effectiveness when faced with an incorporeal foe that drains 1d6 STR on a touch attack at AC 9. By the time it was capable of bringing a twelve-head barrage against any players, it had a STR of 3...but that's a different rant for another thread...
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
Well there are two factors at work here.
First, the hydra is only CR 11. And your party's additional size means that they're equivalent to an eleven to twelve member party. So, at most, the fight should have taken 20% of their renewable resources. At that level, two rounds is pretty typical for an EL=APL fight. But if it took one or two high level spells from the party's spellcasters and/or inflicted a bit of damage, it did what it could be expected to do. If you want a tough fight for a large party, the EL you're looking for is APL +2 (challenging) to APL +4 (deadly).
Second, considering that the hydra DID manage to close and attack by the second round, that the party "kept out fo its reach most of the fight" is a pretty meaningless contention. Apparently being "slow" means only that it can't necessarily munch a PC on round 1. I also wonder about the "well armored" party members being immune to the hydra's attacks. Since its attacks are at +17, how heavily armored is your 12th level party? Apparently they didn't need to be very heavily armored because the hydra was down to a strength of 3 (I do wonder how the Shadow managed to drain that much strength in a single round without a full attack though). Try the strong interpretation with the hydra at full strength and I imagine you'll see an entirely different situation.
First, the hydra is only CR 11. And your party's additional size means that they're equivalent to an eleven to twelve member party. So, at most, the fight should have taken 20% of their renewable resources. At that level, two rounds is pretty typical for an EL=APL fight. But if it took one or two high level spells from the party's spellcasters and/or inflicted a bit of damage, it did what it could be expected to do. If you want a tough fight for a large party, the EL you're looking for is APL +2 (challenging) to APL +4 (deadly).
Second, considering that the hydra DID manage to close and attack by the second round, that the party "kept out fo its reach most of the fight" is a pretty meaningless contention. Apparently being "slow" means only that it can't necessarily munch a PC on round 1. I also wonder about the "well armored" party members being immune to the hydra's attacks. Since its attacks are at +17, how heavily armored is your 12th level party? Apparently they didn't need to be very heavily armored because the hydra was down to a strength of 3 (I do wonder how the Shadow managed to drain that much strength in a single round without a full attack though). Try the strong interpretation with the hydra at full strength and I imagine you'll see an entirely different situation.
Dakhran the Dark said:
Dakhran the Dark
First Post
Elder-Basilisk said:
The thing is, I did use the strongest interpretation -- all 12 heads as a standard attack, and the creature can use all 12 heads on each of its two attacks of opportunity, and can do so while flat-footed.
Granted, the party is tougher, and like I said, I took that into consideration when making my statement. However, before the combat, I was actually panicking that using the hydra at its fullest would result in a TPK, since they were missing their two best frontline fighters, and none of the remaining PCs had Improved Sunder. I did underestimate the effectiveness of that shadow, though. Before the creature came into close enough range for me to declare initiative for the party, the shadow was already hitting it for 6 points of STR damage, and the first actual round of combat resulted in a critical hit. Combined with my low initiative roll for the creature, the combat ended up being a nearly flawless victory. I think it may have used 8% of their resources, as the blinking halfling *did* take 40 damage from the heads that hit, knocking one character below half.
This party then proceeded to take an EL15 fixed encounter out in under three rounds, using less than 5% of their remaining resources...but like I said, a rant for another time...damn shadow...
I guess the point I'm making is that you can't really judge how powerful a creature will be against the PCs in your game until after the combat is over. What I thought could result in many PC deaths ended up being a pushover. Whatever the factors involved, I'm convinced that a hydra just isn't as fearsome as it seems, even with the strongest interpretation of its combat attack routines and attacks of opportunity.
Artoomis
First Post
Not so bad, but...
Dakhran the Dark:
You're right. It's not as bad as it seems. the only real fun I had in running it was the look of surprise on the "invincible" barbarian's player's face when he got hot by ALL it's heads at once for the movement-generated AoO.
That was priceless!!
They made short work of it after that.
Dakhran the Dark:
You're right. It's not as bad as it seems. the only real fun I had in running it was the look of surprise on the "invincible" barbarian's player's face when he got hot by ALL it's heads at once for the movement-generated AoO.
That was priceless!!
They made short work of it after that.
Nail
First Post
Right...well, there's the issue, then.Dakhran the Dark said:
Still, a large party like that, at that level.....they should be able to take care of a pure melee brute.
I'll have to run one of these things into my low level party, and see how the "strong interp." of the Combat Reflexes goes.
Sanackranib
First Post
you can remove its heads witout improved sunder right? I mean you do enough damage and you can kill them off one at a time.
Sanackranib
First Post
I ran a 5 head hydra aginst my party of 2nd-4th level pc's and it didnt even get an attack. they surprised it then beat it on init. on each of the 2 rounds combat lasted [the surprise and 1st] the lev 3 spiked chain wielding fighter did enough damage to kill a head. the lev 2 warrior with a dwarven waraxe did 13 in the surprise round and took out a head. the lev 3 rogue/ranger 1 sneak attacked 2 heads and wounded both. the mage used magic missile and took the wounded one out. the rogue sneak attacked the final head in round 1 and took it out. I gave each of the heads 12 hp! not that it mattered. is the attack while flatfooted thing new? the party was scared to fight the brute but the priest wouldnt allow it to be left behind to attack anymore helpless travelers [it was eating one when the party encountered it] granted they got the good jump on it and they all beat its init roll for the 1st round but I remember Hydras being much harder to take out then that . . .
Sanackranib said:
Hey Sanackranib,
well one problem is the Hydra's Combat Reflexes allow it to make AoOs while flat-footed so every one of the charatcers that attacked it without the benefit of the Improved Sunder Feat would have suffered AoO's and even at "only 1 head per AoO per character" that would have made the encounter tougher.
Also I'm pretty sure that the Magic Missile can't (by the rules) target a head, only the body, so that wouldn't have worked out to well either.
Now factor in the fact the the stumps need to be burned or else 2(!) heads spring out in 1d4 rounds and things could have been a bit tougher there also.
Especially since (page 156 MMv.3.5) "A hydra does not die from losing its heads until all its heads have been cut off and the stumps seared by fire or acid."
It's easy to make mistakes as Dm with a critter that has changed as much, from 3.0 to 3.5, as the hydra has.
Maybe make them fight another one soon and let them learn how an "old school hydra" compares to the "new school version."
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