I’m so tired of getting punked out by commoners. (rantish)

[jollyninja]

well, if the town guard are not complete idiots, they would try to grapple any wizards or sorcerors with their peons and the elete guys would take on the rest of the party, making the battle not so one sided. even a high level wizard can't grapple at all. and heck, with enough numbers and some K.O. poison, even the warriors could be taken down in such a manner.

also, how long could someone be in the town guard before they picked up enough xp to level up?, they practice don't they? possibly with subdual weapons and unarmed combat? they would get xp for that as well.

 

[Lazybones]

I agree that having all of the commoners be high-level in NPC classes is not a good solution to the problem of players who won't make nice with the common folk. However, I think it is perfectly reasonable to have a low-level smith to respond in the manner described. Most people tend to get their hackles up when treated in an arrogant manner. I've DMed games when even low to mid-level PCs behaved in a boorish, aggressive, and abusive manner in town (immature players, mostly). That's not to say that an immature DM can't have his NPCs behave in the same way toward PCs--I've seen that as well. In one game, things snowballed after an altercation in a shop and the session ended up with the town guard throwing half of the group bleeding and unconscious into the town jail while the other half fled for their lives. They never even got to the dungeon I'd prepared that day, IIRC.

Anyway, I guess my suggestion for DMs is that they let the players behave as they wish, but to have realistic and consistent consequences follow their actions. I admit I got pretty ticked at the group above but we actually had some fun the next section while the half of the group that had escaped had to come up with a plan to break their friends out of jail.

 

[Breakstone]

Heh. This reminds me of a DM'ing experience of mine...

It was way back in 2e and I was running a "Reverse Dungeon" module, in which the players were goblins and the enemies were the adventurers.

The goblin characters decided to raid the nearby village under the cloak of nightfall. First, they snuck into the smithy. The module stated that the blacksmith was a dwarf, but I couldn't find any stats. So I turned to "Dwarf" in the Monster Manual. That dwarf had armor and a weapon. Now I didn't want to slow down the game, so I used the stats as is.

The goblins broke through the back door of the smithy, to see:

"The dwarven blacksmith is standing in front of a mirror, trying on Chain Mail and a Warhammer."

Much mayhem ensued.

Anyway, talk to your DM, and try not to pick a fight with every single armor-wearing, hammer-toting blacksmith you see. I'm sure you'll work things out peacefully (unless he's a 12th level DM).

 

[rounser]

"The dwarven blacksmith is standing in front of a mirror, trying on Chain Mail and a Warhammer."

That's awesome! I've been looking for a handle on how to roleplay dwarves...

You could even have dwarven fashion shows with models showing off the latest in half-plate chic ("Mithril is in again, adamantium is so last decade...") from the forges of Mount Durmenghast, and weaponry from the hottest young designer/weaponsmiths making a stir in the underground. Dwarven adventurers could find armour from the big labels in dwarven fashion, only to trade it in again because their designer chainmail doesn't go with the latest in summer axes...

Wow.

 

[Belgarath]

I think that part of the problem is the system itself. To be a good blacksmith, or to be good at anything really, you must be a high level. I dont necessarily agree with giving all the NPCs PC classes however. A really good blacksmith might be a commoner, or maybe even an expert, but unless he has a good story, should not be a fighter.
Something that I use is the idea that adventurers are in the top 10% of the population from first edition. To me that means that only about 10% of the people you will meet will have a PC class. The rest are all NPC classes. They may be high level, but still NPC classed. Even the captain of the guard in a large town may only be an 8th level warrior. An 8th level warrior with some backup can still kick some butt though.

 

[Bonedagger]

Even the captain of the guard in a large town may only be an 8th level warrior. An 8th level warrior with some backup can still kick some butt though.

That seems to be one of the things people often forget. People help and protect eachother against outsiders. You don't need to be a though commener. You just need to know who to get.

Hey. Maybe it could be a crowd where the local alcemist had handed out alcemists fires.

Maybe a local animal (monster) trainer would join in with his pet. Sort of like an advanced watchdog.

They could try and subdue them by putting something in their food.

Now that I remember. Fire seems to be a popular choise among the commen scared man of the middleages. ...Burn down the house the PC's are sleeping in.. Ok. Then the really must have pissed someone of. Still. If they don't sleep at an inn but locally. Commen in small societies.

Maybe the commener appears to cover for the pc's but later somebody tries to help themself to the PC's belongings.

etc....

 

[hong]

I think that part of the problem is the system itself. To be a good blacksmith, or to be good at anything really, you must be a high level.

Note that it's quite easy for even a 1st level expert blacksmith to make masterwork items.

 

[Darkness]

well, if the town guard are not complete idiots, they would try to grapple any wizards or sorcerors with their peons and the elete guys would take on the rest of the party, making the battle not so one sided. even a high level wizard can't grapple at all. and heck, with enough numbers and some K.O. poison, even the warriors could be taken down in such a manner.

They'd need to get awfully close to do that. Plus, even mid-level wizards tend to win initiative against "peons" most of the time. Also, to get to the wizards, you'll often have to get past the fighter-types first - not an easy task in most cases. What's more, you'll also have to identify them first - which isn't as easy as it used to be in previous editions of the game.

also, how long could someone be in the town guard before they picked up enough xp to level up?, they practice don't they? possibly with subdual weapons and unarmed combat? they would get xp for that as well.

Not under the core rules... I agree that they should get some, though.
BTW, Sean K. Reynolds has posted a possible way to handle NPC advancement on his web site. Click here.

 

[WizarDru]

It's a toss-up, I suppose. On the one hand, unless the town guards are extremely well organized, they're going to get roasted pretty badly. On the other hand, the players shouldn't be amoral, invulnerable killing machines.

While this was most likely (based on one observation from a player) a sign of a bad trend, it's not impossible that the blacksmith was a retired adventurer. More than once in any town other than Hommlet, and it's getting a little silly.

The issue is trying to prevent a 'Untouchable Trio'-like situation, where NPCs are seen as a source of XP, loot or just peons to be denigrated. After seeing a bunch of puffed up players suddenly deciding to act like jumped-up brown-shirts, a DM might get frustrated. It's not how I'd handle it, but I try not to second-guess other DMs without being there.

"I don't care if you saved my village or not...I'm the only blacksmith in town. You don't like my prices, you can leave. First you insult my skills; Now are you threatening me in my own home? Some hero!"

Regardless of this situation, some NPCs aren't going to act smart or in their best interest, regardless of HOW powerful the PCs are. That blacksmith might be radically overmatched (and depending on the player's abilities, usually should be), but that doesn't mean he KNOWS that, or cares. He may just be prideful or stubborn. But if he's grabbing a hammer and lobbing it at a 12th-level character and whupping the character's butt, one tends to wonder what he's doing making horseshoes in some backwater.

 

[Snoweel]

I assume that four 8th level PC's out of control aren't going to be hunted by 1st level warriors.

And besides, the average adult NPC IMC is about 3rd level.

To add to this, if the party is known to include spellcasters (even if they don't) then the group sent by the government to bring them to justice will include spellcasters too.

So, assuming 25 warriors averaging 3rd level (maybe even 4th or 5th - these guys will likely be better than average if they're supposed to be arresting high powered criminals), as well as say 3 8th level elites with warrior and maybe even fighter levels, as well as 2 spellcasters with 5+ levels makes for a mean encounter for 4 PC's of average level 8.

P.S. Sean K Reynolds' notes on peasant advancement are excellent.

P.P.S. The master blacksmith IMC will still only be a level 8 commoner. And I've decided that she will have a BAB of +0. However, hp and saves will be as per the DMG.