I am surprised I am still excited for Daggerheart

[Ruin Explorer]

Star Trek
Star Wars
Alien

All three of which are on their 2nd or later license, all three have significant player bases. Trek's player base is strongly divided... but it's divided by system used. FASA, LUG, Decipher, Prime Direcitive 1e... all having player bases unhappy with STA (Star Trek Adventures), but STA has a strong fanbase.

Also worth noting: all three have thriving fan literature, official expanded universe presence, and computer/console games. Alien is, to be honest, the weakest ecosystem of the three.

I could easily see doing a 30's/40's/50's pulp sci-fi with Daggerheart... but only two big names in that come to mind: Flash Gordon, Buck Rogers. Lots of one-off movies, tho'.

That's my point though - dozens of licenced games, and only these three have survived and honestly no Star Trek game has ever done that hot - they've been at best decent success. And I say that as a big Trek fan, I've consistently by surprised by them not doing amazing given the huge RPG player/Trek fan crossover. I think part of it is none of the Trek ones really having a system that's quite ideal for Trek (which is also why the fanbase remains divided - people think the other systems are crap at something that's important about Trek to them).

Also I'm going to be real but I don't think any measurable number of people are playing the Trek versions which aren't STA and maybe Decipher. LUG went out of business in 2000. FASA stopped publishing their Trek RPG in 1989. Come on man. We can't pretend people are playing these in measurable numbers - I'm not saying no-one is playing them, but it's not many people.

 

[aramis erak]

That's my point though - dozens of licenced games, and only these three have survived and honestly no Star Trek game has ever done that hot - they've been at best decent success. And I say that as a big Trek fan, I've consistently by surprised by them not doing amazing given the huge RPG player/Trek fan crossover. I think part of it is none of the Trek ones really having a system that's quite ideal for Trek (which is also why the fanbase remains divided - people think the other systems are crap at something that's important about Trek to them).

Also I'm going to be real but I don't think any measurable number of people are playing the Trek versions which aren't STA and maybe Decipher. LUG went out of business in 2000. FASA stopped publishing their Trek RPG in 1989. Come on man. We can't pretend people are playing these in measurable numbers - I'm not saying no-one is playing them, but it's not many people.

The thing is, there are fanbases, and note that Modiphius is still treating it as their flagship RPG (pun intended).

Current licensed Trek RPGS, Commercial: STA and Captain's Log (both 2d20 from Modiphius), GPD, PD20, PD1e
Current Fan-License RPGs: Alpha Quadrant, Where No Man Has Gone Before, Far Trek, Jack Photon (fasa pseudoclone)
Not licensed but clearly Trek: Starships and Spacemen (both editions in PDF, both available POD last I checked)

That STA is a top 10 seller after 8 years? Impressive.
Given my druthers? I'd play LUG. I'll run STA or PD1. I long awaited D6PD... but it's been cancelled in favor of Traveller PD.
When you can sustain a brand for 8+ years, have 30+ pages of fan commentary on the backer beta, and are competing with another licensed Trek RPG? STA is doing well.

Star Wars has plenty of players, too... online play includes WEG, WotC, and FFG/Edge... and fan ports for Savage Worlds, Genesys, and several of the narrativist games I can't recall the name of, plus several clearly "We can't get the license but are publishing anyway" highly narrativist games. Once More Into The Void is clearly riffing off Picard Season 1... and doing it nicely - I've run it. was odd but fun. But it avoids IP just enough to be safe from Paramount.

If anything, ALIEN is the SMALLEST fanbase of the bunch. Half my player base won't touch it. The other half loved it.

Alien's the only one where the game is the best source for extended universe.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The thing is, there are fanbases, and note that Modiphius is still treating it as their flagship RPG (pun intended).

Current licensed Trek RPGS, Commercial: STA and Captain's Log (both 2d20 from Modiphius), GPD, PD20, PD1e
Current Fan-License RPGs: Alpha Quadrant, Where No Man Has Gone Before, Far Trek, Jack Photon (fasa pseudoclone)
Not licensed but clearly Trek: Starships and Spacemen (both editions in PDF, both available POD last I checked)

That STA is a top 10 seller after 8 years? Impressive.
Given my druthers? I'd play LUG. I'll run STA or PD1. I long awaited D6PD... but it's been cancelled in favor of Traveller PD.
When you can sustain a brand for 8+ years, have 30+ pages of fan commentary on the backer beta, and are competing with another licensed Trek RPG? STA is doing well.

Star Wars has plenty of players, too... online play includes WEG, WotC, and FFG/Edge... and fan ports for Savage Worlds, Genesys, and several of the narrativist games I can't recall the name of, plus several clearly "We can't get the license but are publishing anyway" highly narrativist games. Once More Into The Void is clearly riffing off Picard Season 1... and doing it nicely - I've run it. was odd but fun. But it avoids IP just enough to be safe from Paramount.

If anything, ALIEN is the SMALLEST fanbase of the bunch. Half my player base won't touch it. The other half loved it.

Alien's the only one where the game is the best source for extended universe.

Star Wars FFG isn't Edge until they release a product.

 

[aramis erak]

Star Wars FFG isn't Edge until they release a product.

They have... reprints. With the Edge imprint in place of FFG. Pray they DON'T do any homegrown - they're likely to screw it up badly.

 

[Teemu]

I love 4e but I think the comparisons drawn here are a bit stretched. Everyone gets a new ability every level but you don't even have to take the specializations from your class, they're optional. You could instead take more hit points or more boosts to your traits etc. It's not like everyone gains the subclass feature at level 5. Even if you do decide to take it, you could take it at level 7 instead, or delay it to level 9!

And the Daggerheart card loadout vs 4e powers known is very different. The Daggerheart system is much more akin to a card game because you'll play around the recall costs past level 5. There's nothing like that in 4e.

 

[Reynard]

I love 4e but I think the comparisons drawn here are a bit stretched. Everyone gets a new ability every level but you don't even have to take the specializations from your class, they're optional. You could instead take more hit points or more boosts to your traits etc. It's not like everyone gains the subclass feature at level 5. Even if you do decide to take it, you could take it at level 7 instead, or delay it to level 9!

And the Daggerheart card loadout vs 4e powers known is very different. The Daggerheart system is much more akin to a card game because you'll play around the recall costs past level 5. There's nothing like that in 4e.

People often see what they want to see. In the end, I don't think it is important how "much" 4E is in Daggerheart-- except to those people for whom it is important, for some reason.

 

[Burke]

The contradiction is between actually playing and learning/creating new PCs but the cold, hard reality is that D&D is one of the harder RPGs to learn in the current era, and creates more analysis paralysis about making PCs than most. The only things that are bumping around right now that are as hard, or harder to learn than D&D are all D&D-derivatives!

Did someone pull Exalted 3rd edition from the market when I wasn't looking? Or Shadowrun 6e? The idea that the only medium to high crunch RPGs getting published right now are 5e, Pathfinder and other D&D derivations is simply false.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Did someone pull Exalted 3rd edition from the market when I wasn't looking? Or Shadowrun 6e? The idea that the only medium to high crunch RPGs getting published right now are 5e, Pathfinder and other D&D derivations is simply false.

Might want to re-read what you quoted.

 

[zedturtle]

I'm not sure I see the 4E influence.

One that I haven't seen as many folks twig to as expected – in 4e you are often asked to roll some multiple of your damage die for a weapon attack, and the higher your level, the more dice you roll. In DH, your proficiency with weapons bakes that in.

 

[aramis erak]

Might want to re-read what you quoted.

Exhaulted can and does cause about as much analysis paralysis as D&D. It's just that so few play it...