I begin to worry...

[Fifth Element]

Ah, yes. Argument by ridicule. I was wondering how long it would take......

Sorry, I guess that should have been:

Does anyone agree with me about 4E?

Is that better?

 

[Odhanan]

Sorry, I guess that should have been:

Does anyone agree with me about 4E?

Is that better?

No, it's not. I'm getting tired as well to read concerns of other people (like I had my own a while ago) and seeing people take cheap shots at them for whatever reason.

It remains a cheap shot at a guy who didn't ask for it AND a cheap shot at all of us who do have concerns about 4E and are trying to address them by talking to the community at large. Posting a humor thread is one thing. Laughing at other people in their own thread is another. Please don't do it.

 

[AllisterH]

I'm kinda surprised people don't see the balance problem with full-casters compared to non-casters.

I mean, past level 8 in EVERY edition (not just 3.x), there isn't an adventure written where it wasn't better to replace the non-casters with full casters.

Unless you directly target them in some way, namely the "anti-magic" trick, the full casters ruled the roost.

Why do you think Mord's Disjunction was considered a gamebreaker when used against fighters yet only an annoyance when used against wizards?

 

[Andor]

I dealt with this in the other thread talking about hp's. I'll repeat things here.

HP's are abstract. The problem is, people want to make the mechanics fit the narrative, rather than the other way around. When the high level fighter jumps off the cliff, he doesn't free fall to the bottom and go splat. We know he didn't because he still has hp's left and walks away.

For the same reason, we don't describe a killing blow before damage is rolled in combat.

Instead, the fighter hit some shrubs and branches on the way down, slowing his fall and landed in a deep pile of pine needles at the bottom. Thus, the narrative fits the mechanics, in exactly the way it should be in a RPG. We don't declare the results of an action before the dice are rolled, ever. This is no different.

Make the narrative fit the action, not the other way around.

So if my 20th level fighter with 200 hp fell off a flying carpet 1000' up and fell through clear branchless air to land on the newly swept, sparkling clean, slate paved imperial courtyard would you declare him dead even though by the rules as written he couldn't possibly die?

Or reverse the equation. If I stick a sword through a first level rogue dropping him to -2 hp he is down and dying with his organs exposed to the world. Joe Cleric strolls up and casts a cure light wounds and he pops up, miraculously healed, blood restored, flesh reknit, ready to go.

But if my 20th level fighter is down to 10 hp, by your narrative process he's just tired, covered with scrapes and scratches. Joe Cleric works his miracle on him and... Not a damm thing. Maybe one scrape scabs over. It was only 8 out of 190 hp restored, less than 5% of the inflicted damage. Puzzled Joe casts Heal. A spell powerful enough to fully restore a gutted whale. Nope. Still covered in scrapes although he probably managed to catch his breath at least. How much damm sense does your narrative make now?

 

[Dave Turner]

But if my 20th level fighter is down to 10 hp, by your narrative process he's just tired, covered with scrapes and scratches. Joe Cleric works his miracle on him and... Not a damm thing. Maybe one scrape scabs over. It was only 8 out of 190 hp restored, less than 5% of the inflicted damage. Puzzled Joe casts Heal. A spell powerful enough to fully restore a gutted whale. Nope. Still covered in scrapes although he probably managed to catch his breath at least. How much damm sense does your narrative make now?

Look, if you're willing to believe that men can summon magical energy from mythical divine beings to perform miracles, you've got to loosen your grip on the narrative a bit more than that. If you're that intent on standing in the way of your own fun, I'm not sure what will help you. Still, I'll try to solve your problems with a few minutes of simple thought.

We're dealing with a cleric, an agent of a divine being. The cleric uses favors from his god to work magic. Unless you're a fan of explicit meta-gaming, you probably don't believe that your cleric understands how many spell slots he has. What I mean is, your cleric doesn't know, in character, that he has three Cure Light Wounds left memorized, one Cure Serious, a Heal, and two Neutralize Poisons. That's what you as a player knows. As far as your cleric is concerned, he prays to his god for wounds to heal. He doesn't ask the god for 1-8+level hit points. The cleric doesn't think to himself: "I have three units of low-level healing, one medium-level heal, and one high-level heal. I need to conserve my units of healing and use them efficiently. Which unit should I deliver to my injured friend?" If your cleric does go through that calculation, then you're already kicking the crap out of the narrative, so your other complaints about the sanctity of the narrative seem misguided.

So let's assume that your cleric's narrative isn't irredeemably riddled with meta-game conceits. Your cleric, Joe Cleric, always wants to heal his friends to the best of his ability. Who wouldn't? Who would say to themselves: "Gee, I'd just like my friend to get a little bit better, maybe enought to walk. Sure, I've completely healed his wounds in the past, but I just don't feel like it right now." Unlikely to say the least. It's safe to assume that every time Joe Cleric prays for healing, he's praying for complete healing.

But Joe Cleric has been healing people with miracles for a while. He knows from experience that sometimes he doesn't get the help he needs from his god. Sometimes, his god completely answers his prayers and his friend is fully healed from a grievous injury. For those scoring at home, that's your rogue example. Other times, though, Joe Cleric prays as hard as he can and his god just doesn't deliver. It's hardly a stretch. The gods are inscrutable and have their own motives. If Joe's god doesn't want to offer much help to his 20th level fighter friend, then what's Joe Cleric going to do? He'll be grateful for what little aid his god did deliver (8 hit points) and do the best he can in the situation.

See what's going on here? I'm fitting the meta-game realities of D&D 4E's rule system (clerics only have a limited number of healing spells of varying power) into the narrative of a cleric's healing miracles. From the meta-game perspective of the player, Joe Cleric's options might be restricted. The player might know that Joe Cleric only has one Cure Light spell left. From the character's perspective, i.e. the narrative perspetive, Joe only knows that he's called on his god a lot during the day and he's not sure how much slack he has left with his divine patron. He feels tired and senses that his god doesn't have much attention left for him that day. Still, when he puts his hands on his friend and asks for healing, he's going for broke every time.

But what if Joe Cleric's player decides to cast the Heal? Remember, from the character's perspective, from the perspetive of the narrative, Joe Cleric always asks his god for a complete and total healing. Well, let's assume that Joe Cleric is 15th level. He's hanging around with a 20th level fighter, so that's not much of a stretch. 20th level fighter goes from 10 hp to 160 hp. He's ready to fight, with his scrapes and bruises miraculously gone.

Where's the problem? Oh, you're referring to the whale-gut-restoring power of Heal? I already told you: Joe Cleric prays for full and complete healing every time he bends his knee. In the metagame, we know he's casting a Heal to repair the whale. In the narrative, we see if the whale recovers enough hit points. If so, the gods fully answered Joe's prayers. If not, well, the gods move in mysterious ways. You did your best, Joe, just as you do every time you try to heal someone.

And so what if it's not actual healing, as in the knitting of wounds? There's no great narrative leap required to assume that a "heal" can consist of an infusion of divine vigor, some divine morale, if you will. I don't deny that the labels D&D has used for 30 years have shaped expectations. For 30 years, the spell has been called "Cure Light WOUNDS". The spell removes wounds so, if it works on a character, there must have been some wounds there, right? A gash or broken bone?

The bad news for you, Andor, is that 4E is keeping the name "Cure Light Wounds" (I assume it's being kept; it's a bit of a sacred cow) but they're asking you to look past the name a bit. What if they called it something like "Minor Recovery of Reserve Points"? Hardly evocative, is it? But that's really what it is. You can make peace with it. Keep calling the spell "Cure Light Wounds" (for the sake of nostalgia), but don't get hung up on the "wounds" part. You're getting bent out of shape over some arbitrary nomenclature. Grasp the rules and work with them rather than getting hung up on the silly names of the rules. If you're willing to buy into men calling down divine power to perform miracles on a daily basis, then surely you can look past the name given to a spell?

There you go, Andor. I've just solved your narrative problem with ten minutes of thought. Did I miss anything?


(As an aside, I don't understand why you patently and unfairly avoid trying to use the narrative in your example above. In your example, Joe Cleric delivers a Heal, but the cuts and bruises don't go away? If you're trying to be fair about this, there's no narrative problem in asserting that 150 hp of healing will get rid of scrapes and bruises. Moreover, your example makes it sound like the Heal doesn't work! You write: "Puzzled Joe casts Heal. A spell powerful enough to fully restore a gutted whale. Nope. Still covered in scrapes although he probably managed to catch his breath at least." What do you mean? Are you suggesting that 20th level fighter wouldn't be reinvigorated? Your example looks desperate.)

 

[Doug McCrae]

I wonder if people who say this are largely fighter lovers.

I just wish I had more options once levels hit double digits than wizard, cleric or druid.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Maybe we should all step back a little and try again? I kind of think we're talking straight past each other.

If you're that intent on standing in the way of your own fun, I'm not sure what will help you.

I think what he was trying to point out was that HE considers YOUR narrative to be unfun and nonsensical and prefers HIS version. Now me? I'm generally on his side, the mechanics are telling me something different is happening than your narrative and I always try to move from mechanic to narrative rather than the other way around.

What I mean is, your cleric doesn't know, in character, that he has three Cure Light Wounds left memorized, one Cure Serious, a Heal, and two Neutralize Poisons. That's what you as a player knows. As far as your cleric is concerned, he prays to his god for wounds to heal. He doesn't ask the god for 1-8+level hit points. The cleric doesn't think to himself: "I have three units of low-level healing, one medium-level heal, and one high-level heal. I need to conserve my units of healing and use them efficiently. Which unit should I deliver to my injured friend?" If your cleric does go through that calculation, then you're already kicking the crap out of the narrative, so your other complaints about the sanctity of the narrative seem misguided.

Now for myself I find THIS to be using a narrative to drive the mechanics. Going by the PHB we know that a cleric prays for the spells he will be using during the next day during his daily meditation/prayer. So the spells are prepared before casting rather than spontaneous and are gained by prayer. The most direct and sensible interpretation of this is that the cleric knows precisely what spells he got from his divine backer as he ASKED for them specifically beforehand. This is not metagaming this is working to reach a narrative through the mechanics. Whereas you are apply a narrative in spite of mechanics that do not match.

As an aside, I don't understand why you patently and unfairly avoid trying to use the narrative in your example above. In your example, Joe Cleric delivers a Heal, but the cuts and bruises don't go away? If you're trying to be fair about this, there's no narrative problem in asserting that 150 hp of healing will get rid of scrapes and bruises. Moreover, your example makes it sound like the Heal doesn't work! You write: "Puzzled Joe casts Heal. A spell powerful enough to fully restore a gutted whale. Nope. Still covered in scrapes although he probably managed to catch his breath at least." What do you mean? Are you suggesting that 20th level fighter wouldn't be reinvigorated? Your example looks desperate.

He was using hyperbole yes, but he also has a point which you are patently overlooking. Fighter starts out at 200hp then is taken down to 10hp. Now let's assume that your narrative style would figuratively describe all that damage as just "scrapes and bruises." Heal is cast that still leaves the fighter down by 40hp. Thus his only sign of injury CAN'T yet go away because he's still not fully healed(in fact he still has enough HP damage to drop several 1st level characters) and there's no other damage to describe going away. You can fudge this and describe some of the cuts and bruises healing which is where his hyperbole comes in. But it still doesn't mesh with the mechanics that dropping one of the most powerful healing effects of the game won't eliminate simple cuts and bruises. He's trying to point out that applying enough magical healing to bring 20 first level character from the brink of death to fully healed when applied to a single target would heal enough damage to cripple 20 such characters but not heal what your narrative describes as superficial damage.

 

[Hussar]

In 3e, strip away his spell book and he's good to go for a while, but if he can't get it back in time, he is going to be screwed big time. Drop him in an anti-magic area and he becomes pretty useless. In either of these situations the fighter is diminished, but far from useless. These situations are probably as likely as the party being stripped of their magical gear.

Strip away the fighter's weapons and he's useless on the spot. Ooo, d2 non-lethal attack that draws AOO's. Yeah, he's going to survive any length of time. High level wizard loses a spell book, teleports back home and gets a new one. But, I'm not talking about losing base equipment. I'm talking about losing the bling stuff that comes at high levels. Take away a wizard's MAGICAL (sorry wasn't specific before) equipment and he can replace most of it with spells. Take away a fighters MAGICAL equipment and he's screwed.

So if my 20th level fighter with 200 hp fell off a flying carpet 1000' up and fell through clear branchless air to land on the newly swept, sparkling clean, slate paved imperial courtyard would you declare him dead even though by the rules as written he couldn't possibly die?

What I'm saying is that your narrative doesn't work. He doesn't fall onto a swept slate. He hits that tree that was planted in the imperial courtyard and it breaks his fall. He catches an updraft. Heck, I don't know. What I'm saying is you've dictated a narrative that does NOT fit the results of the dice. It's no different than describing your attack as lethal before rolling damage. If the PC has 50 hit points, there is no way (barring magic) for a 1st level fighter to lop off his head in a single stroke of a longsword. (actually, not quite true, but, close enough) Thus, no matter how well you roll, max damage, crit, full power attack, doesn't matter, you cannot describe the attack as lethal. This is no different.

D&D is driven by Narrativium.

Or reverse the equation. If I stick a sword through a first level rogue dropping him to -2 hp he is down and dying with his organs exposed to the world. Joe Cleric strolls up and casts a cure light wounds and he pops up, miraculously healed, blood restored, flesh reknit, ready to go.

Why? Why are his organs exposed? Just because he's -2? He might simply have a very deep cut that is bleeding. That fits with the hp description. It's not as if you can NEVER describe hp damage as physical. That's not RAW. By RAW, you pick either physical damage or not so hurting damage, whichever fits best.

But if my 20th level fighter is down to 10 hp, by your narrative process he's just tired, covered with scrapes and scratches. Joe Cleric works his miracle on him and... Not a damm thing. Maybe one scrape scabs over. It was only 8 out of 190 hp restored, less than 5% of the inflicted damage. Puzzled Joe casts Heal. A spell powerful enough to fully restore a gutted whale. Nope. Still covered in scrapes although he probably managed to catch his breath at least. How much damm sense does your narrative make now?

Nope. Wrong. The fighter is John MacClean after Die Hard. He's chewed up. He's Conan by the end of most of the stories. He's be whacked a whole bunch of times. You drop the Heal spell and all those cuts and bruises and internal goodies heal over. He's still dirty, but he's not hurt (as much) anymore.

Again, it's not binary. It's not that hp's are ONLY physical damage and it's not that HP are not physical damage. Pick the one that makes the most sense to the narrative at the time.

 

[Piratecat]

Folks, tensions are higher than normal because of 4e, right? So please take the extra step and don't automatically take offense at comments that bother you. In a similar vein, don't take the time to post if your comment adds nothing except for making the thread less pleasant for other people. A little bit of consideration goes a long way right now, and everyone who can help make discussions friendlier are actually making this board a far more pleasant place.

Thanks!

 

[Lanefan]

Strip away the fighter's weapons and he's useless on the spot. Ooo, d2 non-lethal attack that draws AOO's. Yeah, he's going to survive any length of time. High level wizard loses a spell book, teleports back home and gets a new one. But, I'm not talking about losing base equipment. I'm talking about losing the bling stuff that comes at high levels. Take away a wizard's MAGICAL (sorry wasn't specific before) equipment and he can replace most of it with spells. Take away a fighters MAGICAL equipment and he's screwed.

Which only serves to tell me that Fighters have been made too dependent on magical equipment and Wizards have it too easy with acquiring spells. So, knock back Wizards a bit by making spells harder to obtain (no choice on training, for example; you get what you get and that's that) or learn, and much more expensive to buy. Make spells meaningful...a wizard learning a new spell should be as important (though a bit more frequent) as a fighter learning a new weapon, which worked in 1e where proficiencies were taken in individual weapons. Now, getting the things you want for your character (in this example, spells) seems to come much more easily; I think the game suffers because of it, and PCs become ever more optimized and thus ever more powerful. Using the spells example; come up with a Wizard of, say, 12th level and choose its spells, then do the same thing but randomize the spells known to reflect the luck of what he has encountered during his career. Big power difference, huh?

We seem to be watching an arms race in game design here...the numbers keep getting bigger, the abilities grow ever kewler, the dictates of balance drive improvements in classes seen to be lagging, etc. Is this a Good Thing, all in all? I'd say no, and be ready for many to disagree.

Lanefan