I begin to worry...

[HeavenShallBurn]

All I have to say, Hussar, is that in the last campaign I ran into high levels, it was the fighter I was compensating for, not the mage.

And that fighter wasn't using PH2 (which provides a bevy of powerful high level feats for fighters).

And I nerf 2H power attack in my game.

So in other words, my experience differs.

Have to agree, and I've run campaigns up to level 33 in 3.Xe

 

[Celtavian]

re

I'm going to give 4e a read when it comes out. But if they have eliminated all the spells and abilities that make DnD feel like a sword and sorcery fantasy and turned it into a video game on paper, I'll pass. Insta-kill spells should be part of the game. So should hold and paralysis spells as well as mind-control and the like. Turning everything into damage is boring and unoriginal. Shows a lack of creativity on the part of the Wizard game designers.

I'm not interested in playing a video game on paper. I hope that is not what they have designed.

 

[AllisterH]

And I will have to third this. 3.x fighters can dish out quite a bit more damage than mages of the same level, and they have incredible resilience and staying power. There are two fighters in my high-level game, and they both continue to amaze me.

Strip them of their magical gear and strip a mage of his magical gear. Run the same high level adventure and see what class still can pull his weight.

I find it impossible to believe that the fighter can do jack at any level past 10 without the heavy use of magic. Simply because the fighter becomes Batman at high levels doesn't mean that he isn't still a wizard.

 

[Fifth Element]

Turning everything into damage is boring and unoriginal. Shows a lack of creativity on the part of the Wizard game designers.

I'm not sure how making substantive changes to the game can be considered a lack of creativity. If the development reports have shown us anything, it's that the designers are willing to try out anything that seems like a good idea, test it, and discard it if it doesn't work.

And can we stop with the "oh noes, video gamey!" comments already?

 

[Nifft]

And can we stop with the "oh noes, video gamey!" comments already?

ARGUMENT OVER

Please Insert 25¢ to Continue

10... 9... 8..., -- N

 

[Hussar]

I think the entire HP argument so far has centered around just one key issue as illustrated in another thread.


Those on Hussar's side feel their Suspension of Denial is broken when situations where PCs at higher levels begin to do and survive things no human could ever manage to do so. And those of us on my and Andor's side indeed look at the mechanics and see it modeling a situation where PCs may start out as normal humans(or elves or whatever) but become something mythic and inherently greater as the levels accrue. Our Suspension of Denial is based around the very concept that the PCs become something unrealistic at higher levels.

I don't think it's all that far apart really. I figure that it's better that the narrative fit the dice rather than the other way around. Throughout the game, we fit the narrative to the dice, so, why change just because we went to high levels.

As far as the high level fighter goes, my experience certainly did differ. Will saves were one. The other was large grappling creatures. The fighters just couldn't get free from Huge sized grapplers. And then they died. They required the cleric to use Freedom of Movement spells to keep going, otherwise, they got grappled and smoked. Heck, even the Mob template from the DMG II lets you kill high level fighters with 1st level NPC's.

 

[Celtavian]

I'm not sure how making substantive changes to the game can be considered a lack of creativity. If the development reports have shown us anything, it's that the designers are willing to try out anything that seems like a good idea, test it, and discard it if it doesn't work.

And can we stop with the "oh noes, video gamey!" comments already?

Do you play World of Warcraft? I do. Alot of the stuff I'm reading is way too World of Warcraft for my tastes. Used to be that World of Warcraft drew from DnD, now DnD is drawing from video games for its mechanics? Not something I like.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Do you play World of Warcraft? I do. Alot of the stuff I'm reading is way too World of Warcraft for my tastes. Used to be that World of Warcraft drew from DnD, now DnD is drawing from video games for its mechanics? Not something I like.

The question you should ask yourself (if you'd like to present answers, I suggest a more suitable thread):
Why is it bad if ideas or concepts that can be found in video games are transferred to games? Is it uniformly bad, just because everything in a video game must be inherently inferior? Or is it just bad because some mechanics work only in video games due to specifics of how such a game is played compared to how a pen & paper game is played?
Is it impossible for a video game mechanic to work in a pen & paper context? Why was the reverse possible? What is the critical distinction between a video game and a pen & paper game, and which of these are informed purely by mechanics? What are the strength and the weaknesses of each type of game, and which type of mechanics play on these strength or weaknesses, and is it impossible for a mechanic to be independent of it?

 

[Fifth Element]

The question you should ask yourself (if you'd like to present answers, I suggest a more suitable thread):
Why is it bad if ideas or concepts that can be found in video games are transferred to games? Is it uniformly bad, just because everything in a video game must be inherently inferior? Or is it just bad because some mechanics work only in video games due to specifics of how such a game is played compared to how a pen & paper game is played?
Is it impossible for a video game mechanic to work in a pen & paper context? Why was the reverse possible? What is the critical distinction between a video game and a pen & paper game, and which of these are informed purely by mechanics? What are the strength and the weaknesses of each type of game, and which type of mechanics play on these strength or weaknesses, and is it impossible for a mechanic to be independent of it?

I would have said precisely this if Mustrum did not do so first.

One should not reject a concept simply because a video game used it first. All ideas should be judged on their own merits, not on where they come ffrom.

 

[Zweischneid]

The question you should ask yourself (if you'd like to present answers, I suggest a more suitable thread):
Why is it bad if ideas or concepts that can be found in video games are transferred to games? Is it uniformly bad, just because everything in a video game must be inherently inferior? Or is it just bad because some mechanics work only in video games due to specifics of how such a game is played compared to how a pen & paper game is played?
Is it impossible for a video game mechanic to work in a pen & paper context? Why was the reverse possible? What is the critical distinction between a video game and a pen & paper game, and which of these are informed purely by mechanics? What are the strength and the weaknesses of each type of game, and which type of mechanics play on these strength or weaknesses, and is it impossible for a mechanic to be independent of it?

Well, for one to play you're average MMOG you'll play some 20 to 30 $US retail to get in (often including a few months of gametime) and add a subscription of say 15 $US a month.

For D&D you'll play somewhere between 25 - 35 $US per core book (meaning 3 of them) and roughly another 25 - 35 $US if you purchase one supplement a month.
(of course you don't have to buy supplements, just guessing what Wizard would be aiming for in their ideal customer).

So ultimately, aiming for the MMOG crowd likely will not pay off economically. Hence, D&D should strive to occupy a different niche thats worth the price premium over MMOG-play to you're average customer. Getting that across will need some marketing that can relay the D&D advantage over MMOG to the customer. If you're trying to attract MMOG customers, you could just as easily end up losing customers to MMOGs (which are also constantly evolving).