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I broke my brain...Duel Weilding a Lances on a horse!?!? lol

Satyrn

First Post
Hola!

Things like this lead me to ask one, simple question: "If I saw this in Sam Raimi's Xena: Warrior Princess, would I be thinking...COOL!....or would I be thinking WFT?!?". If it's the latter...then no, it won't work.

^_^

Sat - "That was the Ares that should've been in Wonder Woman" - yrn




(Apologies for the copycatting - it was done with kindly intent)
 

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Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Hiya!

Things like this lead me to ask one, simple question: "If I saw this in Peter Jacksons Lord of the Rings, would I be thinking...COOL!....or would I be thinking WFT?!?". If it's the later...then no, it won't work.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

When I saw Gandalf with a longsword in one hand and a staff in another awkwardly flailing about, my reaction was not "COOL!"....
 

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
When I saw Gandalf with a longsword in one hand and a staff in another awkwardly flailing about, my reaction was not "COOL!"....

I think it's because of that one dumb scene we have quarterstaves that can be wielded one handed. Another piece of silliness I've removed from my campaign. A quarterstaff is two-handed, a bo stick is one handed. :rant:
 

pming

Legend
Hiya!

I think it's because of that one dumb scene we have quarterstaves that can be wielded one handed. Another piece of silliness I've removed from my campaign. A quarterstaff is two-handed, a bo stick is one handed. :rant:

In my campaigns I deal with this sort of thing with another easy "tip". If you are using a weapon not as it is intended...then it's either a Club, or a Stick.

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
When I saw Gandalf with a longsword in one hand and a staff in another awkwardly flailing about, my reaction was not "COOL!"....

Indeed.

He has a perfectly good sword, one of the best in that world even. Why not just use it for all his melee attacks.

"Hmm I can hit you with this amazing Elven sword that will cleave through whatever armor you have, or whack you with my spellcasting focus. I'll opt for the latter"
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
Indeed.

He has a perfectly good sword, one of the best in that world even. Why not just use it for all his melee attacks.

"Hmm I can hit you with this amazing Elven sword that will cleave through whatever armor you have, or whack you with my spellcasting focus. I'll opt for the latter"

I blame gamer's notion of two weapon fighting - that it gives you more attacks.
 

Riley37

First Post
I blame gamer's notion of two weapon fighting - that it gives you more attacks.

I have seen a guy try two-sword fighting in the Society for Creative Anachronism. My reaction was indeed "cool", and he defeated some sword-and-board fighters. So far as I could tell, his advantage wasn't the ability to deliver a higher volume of full-force blows, it was more ways to exploit openings.

In anything other than a one-on-one duel, other disadvantages arise. If hostile archers send a volley your way, blocking arrows with a shield is more reliable than parrying arrows with a pair of swords. Also, a shield is necessary when it's time to form a shield-wall.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
I did some “bopper sparring” with a group of guys back in the 1990s- one of whom was a Marine, and also in SCA. Like real weapons, most of the weapons weighed between 1.5-5lbs.

One of the more proficient guys was a 6’3”, 330lb bouncer who used 2WF with a sword & dagger. He had biceps bigger than some women’s waists. IOW, he was BIG. (While pretty strong myself, I was only 5’7” and 193lbs.)

He was quite skilled at using crossed blades to trap and redirect blows, with a flowing follow-up counterstrike- often along the line of the redirected weapon.

The thing is, I damn near concussed him the first time we sparred when I used a polearm. The head was @3lbs, the weapon was 6’ long. I held it shoulder high and vertical, its head about 11’ in the air. He charged, and I brought it down.

As powerful as he was, his attempted redirect failed. He “caught” the weapon, but 3lbs being brought down like that on a 6’ pole with my arms fully extended generated enough force that the head and both of his weapons were driven right back into him. Only a last moment juke of his head prevented him from taking his own sword to the face. His tree-trunk arms couldn’t muster enough force to push my strike out of my intended target zone.

He taught a lot of people about how dangerous 2WF could be...but I taught him a lesson about pure applied physics. ;)
 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon
I have seen a guy try two-sword fighting in the Society for Creative Anachronism. My reaction was indeed "cool", and he defeated some sword-and-board fighters. So far as I could tell, his advantage wasn't the ability to deliver a higher volume of full-force blows, it was more ways to exploit openings.

In anything other than a one-on-one duel, other disadvantages arise. If hostile archers send a volley your way, blocking arrows with a shield is more reliable than parrying arrows with a pair of swords. Also, a shield is necessary when it's time to form a shield-wall.

Indeed. And a skilled two weapon fighter can indeed look cool. The film Gandalf flailing about wasn't.
 

BookBarbarian

Expert Long Rester
I have seen a guy try two-sword fighting in the Society for Creative Anachronism. My reaction was indeed "cool", and he defeated some sword-and-board fighters. So far as I could tell, his advantage wasn't the ability to deliver a higher volume of full-force blows, it was more ways to exploit openings.

In anything other than a one-on-one duel, other disadvantages arise. If hostile archers send a volley your way, blocking arrows with a shield is more reliable than parrying arrows with a pair of swords. Also, a shield is necessary when it's time to form a shield-wall.

Two sword (or rapier) fighting was definitely a valid dueling technique in Europe and Japan. Usually attributed to the highest masters.

I've never heard it used as a battlefield technique however.

Edit: Which isn't to say that it hasn't happened. There's a lot of stuff I don't know about, so take it with a grain of salt.
 


Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
So what would you have done, if he had charged you, on a horse, dual-wielding lances?

Stood directly in front of the horse, shield up, moving as needed to stay directly in front.

MOST horsemen would simply try to run me down, probably (which is why I’m reserving an action for a last-second dodge!). But THIS yahoo? I’m betting he’s going to try to hit me with both lances. As he crosses them in front of the horse, I’m reasonably confident the horse would balk...which might cause the lance tips to dip enough for him to accidentally invent double pole pole vaulting.
 
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Riley37

First Post
I’m reasonably confident the horse would balk...which might cause the lance tips to dip enough for him to accidentally invent double pole pole vaulting.

I don't know the exact details of the Pole Vault bonus to a Jump check, but I think that multiple poles don't give a stackable bonus. I guess he could roll for each lance to see how far down the shaft it breaks, and use the better of the two?

If you had a pole arm, rather than a shield, I speculate that you could parry both lances with a well-timed sweep of the pole arm shaft, which might cause the lances to foul each other, and there's a variety of ways that could end badly for the dual-wielder, some of them involving the horse's objections to the process. If there's anything sharp or pointy on the business end of the pole arm, that might become relevant in the following step.
 

Two sword (or rapier) fighting was definitely a valid dueling technique in Europe and Japan. Usually attributed to the highest masters.

I've never heard it used as a battlefield technique however.

Edit: Which isn't to say that it hasn't happened. There's a lot of stuff I don't know about, so take it with a grain of salt.
I believe that its always been a civilian style simply because any combatant deliberately going into a large fight is going to want either a shield, or something that gives a significant reach/power advantage, if not both.

Fighting with two weapons is for when you're not allowed to carry a shield around, not going to be facing any ranged weapons, and fighting people similarly unarmoured and carrying civilian weapons rather than polearms.

It shortens your reach in a battle-line, cannot protect you from arrows or heavy weapons, and is generally ineffective against armour.
 

AriochQ

Adventurer
I have an Adventurer's League Goblin Beast Master/Cavalier who rides a War Cow and wields twin lances. He also gets advantage on any attacks on creatures Medium or smaller while mounted. It is slightly broken, but competent DM's will balance it by limiting where you can fit a Large mount. I find Gloom Stalker/Crossbow Expert/Sharpshooter still the most egregious build in 5e.
 

This discussion is a pretty depressing reminder of why martials tend to be underpowered and/or most likely to get punitive nerfs in play. Even their fans want them 'nerfed' in the guise of realism. While still fighting giants and dragons, of course.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
This discussion is a pretty depressing reminder of why martials tend to be underpowered and/or most likely to get punitive nerfs in play. Even their fans want them 'nerfed' in the guise of realism. While still fighting giants and dragons, of course.

It all depends on how ridiculous and gonzo you want your game to be. as long as it has internal consistency to its logic I think its fine. Just because there are dragons doens't mean everything is fair play.
 

It all depends on how ridiculous and gonzo you want your game to be. as long as it has internal consistency to its logic I think its fine. Just because there are dragons doens't mean everything is fair play.
Hmmph. Willing Suspension of Disbelief always seems to be at its strongest when it comes to fighters. If my DM's definition of fair play was medusa riders shooting poisonous snake arrows from their hair atop of hellhound mounts but not a fighter dual-wielding lances on horseback, I'd (rightly) suspect a anti-martial screwjob.
 

Flexor the Mighty!

18/100 Strength!
Hmmph. Willing Suspension of Disbelief always seems to be at its strongest when it comes to fighters. If my DM's definition of fair play was medusa riders shooting poisonous snake arrows from their hair atop of hellhound mounts but not a fighter dual-wielding lances on horseback, I'd (rightly) suspect a anti-martial screwjob.

OK.
 


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