I didn't like Bluffside. But I didn't read it, either!

[Nightfall]

Yeah but I guess I'm the exception to the rule. Shiny isn't cutting for me any more. Too many times getting let by a cloudsting only to have the umber hulks and their "Friend" the Blood Horror use me for poking time.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I had the same problem ("not shiny enough") with Interludes. I heard all this great hype about it, then I see the print version (with the horrible cover) and just stop and go "Ugh! I can't buy this; it doesn't look cool." So I skimmed it, saw nothing that jumped out at me as being super cool and shelved it, wondering what the hype was about.

Sure, I've been burned by shiny exteriors and crappy content, but most people take the look of the product as a representation of its quality, inside and out. I'm no different. I am skeptical of anything short of a certain level of perceived quality in my mind. I'm not even saying this is "right"--just the way most consumers operate.

 

[Nightfall]

And in which case...a lot of GOOD d20 material is probably passing you by. Still I hope you tried out Freeport at least. That I KNOW is a good city even if it's not wholly tied to adventures.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

I mean, away from the self-congratulatory, back-slapping comaraderie of the ENB (which is all well and good but hardly objective), there are tens of thousands of gamers who don't even know about the ENB, don't know anything about the product--never even heard of it or your company--and they will most likely buy your product or not based on how "cool" it looks--compared to similar products.

That's one of the reasons why I predict Geanavue and Freeport will dramatically outsell Bluffside, in addition to the "brand name" recognition attached (Kalamar/Freeport established settings, Greenwood/Pramas respected writers) and, to be sure, the extra advertising dollars associated with Green Ronin and Kenzer's marketing machines. Thunderhead/Bluffside is obviously at a disadvantage, and producing a product that cannot cosmetically compare to their primary competitors is a recipe for disaster, IMO. Am I saying this to be mean? Do I wish THG ill will? Do I have a secret agenda in singling their product out for criticism? Absolutely not! I want THG to be successful and competitive. Why not? The more the merrier in the d20 market. I just think it is important for these new d20 start-ups to understand that the "glitz" sells the book in many cases.

 

[Nightfall]

Dude no offense...but NONE of my players have even HEARD of Pramas nor Kingdoms. FR yes, but beyond that they are SO unwashed in the ways of RPG history...it's scary. Example: Book of Eldritch Might by Monte Cook. I got it in paper back,wanted to use as a player. I got SUCH a beat down for trying to use Greater Sleep, it was unreal.

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

And in which case...a lot of GOOD d20 material is probably passing you by.

If it is, I'm not noticing it. I look at everything that comes out, but if it doesn't have that magic glitz rub off in the first few seconds after I pick it up, it goes back on the shelf. If I miss out, is it my fault or the publishers for not catching my eye?

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Dude no offense...but NONE of my players have even HEARD of Pramas nor Kingdoms. FR yes, but beyond that they are SO unwashed in the ways of RPG history...it's scary.

None of mine have heard of Kalamar, Freeport or Pramas except from what I've told them. They know D&D, Forgotten Realms and Ed Greenwood. Other than that, they pretty much exist in a vacuum. They don't visit the ENB, don't even have a computer in some cases, and wouldn't bother to check online for RPG stuff even if they had the time. Those of us on the ENB are an exception, not the rule.

However, more people have heard of Kalamar and Freeport than Interludes, Bluffside or Thunderhead Games. They take out full page ads in Dragon and Dungeon regularly. Their product appears at more game stores (better distribution). These have an impact on sales. Plus, they have better production values. Ergo, they will have greater sales and greater consumer recognition.

 

[TalonComics]

I had the same problem ("not shiny enough") with Interludes. I heard all this great hype about it, then I see the print version (with the horrible cover) and just stop and go "Ugh! I can't buy this; it doesn't look cool." So I skimmed it, saw nothing that jumped out at me as being super cool and shelved it, wondering what the hype was about.

Sure, I've been burned by shiny exteriors and crappy content, but most people take the look of the product as a representation of its quality, inside and out. I'm no different. I am skeptical of anything short of a certain level of perceived quality in my mind. I'm not even saying this is "right"--just the way most consumers operate.

Hmmm, no offense, but you sound like the target audience the comicbook industry was shooting for in the early 1990's. Shiney covers, flashy art, beautiful coloring and horrible stories. Wow, I just described Image Comics: the Early Years. They don't try the shiny cover crap anymore because people were looking past that and saying the content sucked. Shiny doesn't sell like it use to.

Anyway, to each their own but nothing bugs me more when someone writes post after post about a book they didn't even read! That's like going to a restaurant and then writing a review that starts, "I went to this restaurant and man did their food look like crap! I didn't eat anything though."

Okay, so, did anyone who *actually* bought the book, took it home instead of thumbing through it in the store, not like the the things described by KK? I mean most of the stuff KK complained about has nothing to do with actual content and all to do with your opinion of graphic design.

So, after all of this, what did this scathing "non-review" accomplish other than to annoy a bunch of people associated with the smaller publishers?

~Derek

 

[Nightfall]

That maybe so, Kap...but I'm not the one they look to for what they want. They are pretty much "CORE rules" and FR stuff on occasion.

But if you're content letting it pass you by, that's your right. ENWorlders might be exception...but I hope that I find others that are just as exceptional as...well Hal, Scott, Clark, Chris and couple others out there. Oh and PC too. (He's published so he counts! )

 

[Kaptain_Kantrip]

Hmmm, no offense, but you sound like the target audience the comicbook industry was shooting for in the early 1990's. Shiney covers, flashy art, beautiful coloring and horrible stories. Wow, I just described Image Comics: the Early Years. They don't try the shiny cover crap anymore because people were looking past that and saying the content sucked. Shiny doesn't sell like it use to.

So, after all of this, what did this scathing "non-review" accomplish other than to annoy a bunch of people associated with the smaller publishers?

~Derek

I never said "shiny" equalled better content. It doesn't. It can be an indicator of substandard content in many cases (as in your comic book example or my Hollywood example--I stopped buying comics when that new trend started and prices went through the roof). But "shiny" is what most consumers THINK they want. Even those who know better often have a hard time resisting the urge to "go shiny" when they get ready to spend money. Like Doritos Extreme: It has a super shiny new package and promises the moon, but when you taste the chips you're like, "Damn, these kinda suck. I should've bought regular Doritos."

At any rate, to address your other concern, I don't consider my criticisms "scathing" by any stretch. I am aware it annoyed some people, and I never intended to hurt any feelings or cause trouble (though I had an inkling it might be misinterpreted as trying to). I thought it was more important to offer advice to a new publisher than lie or say nothing.