I didn't like Bluffside. But I didn't read it, either!

I have to come to Kaptains defense

His method of evaluating products is not far different from mine:

1) Did it catch my eye when placed against all the other d20 stuff - Frankly Bluffside nor Geneveure(sp) did. Freeport however did.

2) How did they "look" in the skim test - Geneveure passed, Freeport (in a quick skim) failed and Bluffside failed - for many of the same reasons that Kaptain said

3) Is the content somethign I need for my campaign?

4) Is the content Good? If I do not get past 1/2 I never find out about 3/4.

Is this method of purchase fair? Probably not - I will likely miss good stuff, but it is how I am "programmed" to make decisions - it is the same way that I select books from the library......
 

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Utrecht said:
I have to come to Kaptains defense

His method of evaluating products is not far different from mine:

1) Did it catch my eye when placed against all the other d20 stuff - Frankly Bluffside nor Geneveure(sp) did. Freeport however did.

2) How did they "look" in the skim test - Geneveure passed, Freeport (in a quick skim) failed and Bluffside failed - for many of the same reasons that Kaptain said

3) Is the content somethign I need for my campaign?

4) Is the content Good? If I do not get past 1/2 I never find out about 3/4.

Is this method of purchase fair? Probably not - I will likely miss good stuff, but it is how I am "programmed" to make decisions - it is the same way that I select books from the library......

I find this interesting -

I found the Bluffside cover very good and it made me think of the city and running a game. Freeport's cover did nothing for me, and Geneveure gave me the impression of the Living Greyhawk book.

Skimming the book I found the layout of Bluffside to be very intuitive, easy to jump around and focus on details. Geneveure a lot of detail but wordy, you really can't jump from location to location. And I hate tearing the rumorquest cards out of my book but I like the idea. Freeport is much like Bluffside but not as intuitive, things don't stand out (this may be to page color).

Content - Geneveure is filled with it, too much to allow a clean drop into any game but wonderful if your game is KoK or close to that setting. Bluffside is loaded, lots of NPCs, locations, plot hooks, and character. Freeport is loaded with character, it drips plot and adventure but it does not have as many locations nor NPCs, it also make me feel it is a good place to adventure at but you don't want to live there.

I plan on using Freeport as a reoccuring location, Bluffside is my players homebase.

If you pick up Frreport be careful with the map, it tears!

I just wonder if it is 'programmed', I am over 40, I don't think action flick are just good because of special effects, I look for story and plot, I never thought that it could apply to games.:)
 
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Forrester said:


Actually, I thought that the Compleat Librum of Necromantic Arts was *very* pretty for a .pdf, typos aside. Decent cover art, and the inside looked great -- much better than Mongoose's Necro book. And it had more in it, too. A steal for a .pdf.

Oops. I forgot to include Gar'Udok as a "pretty" pdf; the art was generally decent and a few pieces were quite cool (like the skeleton with the weapon fused to its arm). I did not like the ragged parchment background on each page--it was distracting, and sucked up extra ink. I'm really not looking for pretty in a pdf--I want plain vanilla B&W and easy to read. Saves ink, saves $, lets me focus in right away on crunchy bits.
 

Utrecht said:
I have to come to Kaptains defense

His method of evaluating products is not far different from mine:

Thanks for the back-up, Utrecht. :)

I think a lot of the people bashing me are not considering that other people--many other people--are not evaluating products in the same way as they do. It is entirely unrealistic to expect most people to give a product a chance beyond their initial reaction. You grab their attention right off the bat or you don't. If you don't---no sale, no second chance, no nothing (except bad word of mouth---"I saw that and it sucked" being a typical response from someone who you failed to make a good first impression on).

I am reminded of Fast Forward's irate replies to criticisms of their d20 product; bashing your detractors and failing to recognize that maybe they have a valid point are not hallmarks of a wise businessman. Instead of getting angry (unless the critic is completely off the wall), the businessman should ask himself, "Does this person have a valid concern?" and "How can I improve my products to negate this kind of criticism in the future?"
 

No Problem:)

This is not to say that I ignore word of mouth - in fact, I will likely have to go back and give Freeport and Bluffside a more complete looksie.......

In fact, I would have to say with the exception of the WotC and Fiery Dragon stuff, most of what I end up picking up is die to hearty endorcement of this board.
 

for those interested, a column of text should contain 50-75 characters. 50 prefferably. Anyway, that might be the reason for the three column spacing on this book.
 

Okay, to be fair, I went to the game store and actually sat down and read Bluffside.

The content (or "meat" if you prefer) of the book seems pretty decent for the most part (definitely 90% usable), but still nothing special or "amazing" by any stretch. It just didn't ignite my imagination. However, the adventure hooks, "regulars" and owner sections for each establishment are a very nice touch that other city books could (should) learn from. Definite kudos on that; THG has made a big step forward in the evolution of city settings in this regard! :)

I never said I "hated" Bluffside, and it's not a bad book from a content perspective. It gives a lot of detail for the money. It should be fine for many gamers. It just doesn't work for me on several levels (layout/design and creative differences of opinion as to what constitutes a good city setting).

My issues with the layout still stand, and the maps (interior and pull-out) are poor--next to useless, IMO, as the buildings are so tiny as to be almost impossible to pick out (the brown coloring doesn't help the clarity either). One would need a massive blow-up of the map to get the kind of street/building detail seen in Geanavue, Lankhmar or even most FR cities. The map makes or breaks a city or adventure for me, and so I must pass on Bluffside. Other contributing factors in giving Blufffside a pass are:

1) The city is too strange for me, from its background to its bizarre "six cities in one" configuration. I prefer more traditional medieval designs that can easily be "dropped in" to existing campaign worlds.

2) The new races are unnecessary, unwelcome and confusing. Why do we need them? There are too many races in the PHB to choose from, let alone various FR optional PC races.

3) The NPC section is all jammed together on a background that is too heavily tinted (dark) gray, making photocopying a pain, and finding information a bit harder in dimly lit gaming rooms.

4) Silly things like naming a gray ooze "Carl" and having people worship it as a "god" drive me nuts. I read "Carl's Temple" and while the rationale for it is not quite as stupid as it originally sounded, it's still really dumb and undermines the integrity of the entire setting. Things like this rack up massive negative points in my mind, much like a Dragon ruling the Universe in FFG's Dragonstar. FR racks up similar negative points for Elminster and every other guy being 20th level+. Geanavue racks up negative points for having an endless stream of patently stupid names and for thousands of gnomes and dwarves manning the city walls.

Note: The sidebar on the left bottom corner of p. 134 is extremely difficult to read due to it being printed in white letters on a picture background.
________

I also looked at Freeport: City of Adventure today. I didn't buy it. It looks nice (cover art kinda stinks though the interior art makes up for it), and has potential, but doesn't deliver the same level of detail as Bluffside, Geanavue, Lankhmar or Freiburg. The map is nice but not nearly as useful or easy to read as Geanavue's. The setting was ok, but borrowed elements from the Cthulhu Mythos (Father Yig and the Serpent People) were uninspired and unnecessary. The cannibal cult was very cool, however, as was the Fountain of Fortune. The interior building maps were clean and perfectly presented just the way I like, but I wish there were more of them. Freeport was decent, and I considered buying it, but decided I didn't need it. Stormhaven from Mongoose might be better for my purposes (and $15 cheaper!).

I bought FFG's awesome Spells & Spellcraft HC instead of Freeport or Bluffside. Now there's a book full of crunchy bits!

I'm looking forward to Windhaven from Affinity. That seems like it's going to be the city setting to beat based on the website preview.
 

In reality, I think that Bluffside, Freeport, and Geanevue will all do quite well. Of course, WOTCs version of doing well is very different from the smaller d20 publishers. I can't for the life of me see how three very good cities won't sell. Cities are always in need and will be bought. Will Bluffside sell as many as Geanevue? In a word, no. Will it sell as many as Freeport? Maybe. But we are all trying our best to get out great cities for the gaming community to use. Try one. Try them all. I don't see how anyone would be put out by having any of these products. If good cities are what you need, then this is a great time to be a GM. This isn't a contest where their is a winner or loser among companies. The winners are all gamers.

Jim Govreau
COO Thunderhead Games, Inc.
 

I hope they all do well, too. None of them fits my needs completely, unfortunately. Most gamers will probably be happy with any of them, even "as is." I'm just picky. :D

What I'd really like is a combination of all three:

The dual-sided city map, rumorquest cards, and level of detail of Geanavue (more than you ever wanted to know about everything)

The adventure hooks, regular patrons idea for every establishment of Bluffside (a really good idea)

The rip-roaring lawlessness of Freeport ("Bah! Peasants! Ye'll taste the sting of my lash on yer backside if'n ye don't scatter outta me way!")

The cultural and societal detail of Freiburg (plus rent/purchase costs for most buildings)

The sleazy urban sprawl and sheer massive FUN of Lankhmar

The "create/buy a slave" and "create/rent a whore" tables from City-State of the Invincible Overlord

And all this in a hardcover... A guy can dream, can't he? :)
 
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I'll finally speak on this topic

After reading over this entire thread, I feel that I need to at least make one comment, as I was one of the writers of Bluffside.

Working in the retail field as I do and have done for a while, and more specifically, a bookstore, I agree with KK. First impressions are crucial to sales of a product. I see it everyday. Does it make it right, to use an old cliche "judge a book by its cover", as the end all be all deciding factor in a purchase. Dont know. That is completely up to the person walking through the store with $$$ in their pocket looking to buy something.

I have seen some of the crappiest looking books sell out in a day because they had great content. I have also seen the best looking books sit on a shelf and collect dust. I have also seen the reverse of both scenarios. Makes the business interesting for the people producing the products to try and strike the fine balance between "flashy and eye-catching" to "usable and full of goodness". A lot of times, they have to choose one or the other due to $$$. Its an unfortunate part of the business no one likes to acknowledge. It goes back to the old topic of money. Those with a lot can afford to spend it on "flashy and eye-catching" while those that dont have it try to strike the balance.

Am I saying that Bluffside is the end all be all city campaign setting. Well, eventhough I helped create it, in a word, no. I dont think ANY product that is released is the "end all be all" of anything. There is just too much talent floating around working for the different compaines to make any product the "end all be all". What I am saying is Bluffside is a very thought out, well put together city that a section of the RPG public will hopefully give a try to. Is it better than all the other great city settings that are out there? Who knows? That is ultimately up to the people who use it or dont use it.

I think that is all I have to say on that topic. I hope it came across the way I wanted it to. Non-confrontational and containing no venom. I firmly believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, whether I agree with them or not. It just so happens that I dont agree with some of KK's, although I do agree with him on some of his points. Thats the nature of the beast I guess.

Now, on to the reason I actually started this post before getting pulled into the other topic. I saw that last post and I just had to comment. I personally believe that every product, no matter what it is supposed to be about, should have a "create/rent a whore" table...lol. How funny is that? LOL

Good gaming to everyone.

:)
 

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