Bendris Noulg
First Post
Billy's back-back-back-back-back-back-back-back.Nightfall said:
I don't get high-level D&D (merged)
- Thread starter CCamfield
- Start date
High-level DnD
Being a DM of a high-level game as well as playing in one I think I've got some insight into the problems you're talking about. The biggest reason people have trouble in high-level games is that they simply don't understand everything that can (and probably will) be going on in their world. High-level characters can do some pretty amazing things, but they've gained these powers over time, and the majority of them were approved by the DM, so there should be some familiarity with what the players can and can't do. So the real problem with the high-level play is in keeping up with the abilities of the players, and crafting adventures to challenge the players.
Some people have mentioned Piratecat's story hour as a good example of keeping up with a high level party. The example about divination and knowing what's going on but being unable to act directly to solve the problem, for fear of retaliation. Alot of that has to do with having good players (A DM's best friend) but it has just as much to do with preperation and dedication. I personnally look at Piratecat, Wizardru, (contact), and Sepulchrave's story hours and wonder how the heck they come up with the stuff they do. As a lazy DM I'm lucky that there's only one player in my campaign (my brother) and that he's content to be the Thieves-guild leader in Greyhawk. My high-level stuff doesn't have to take into account alot of the stuff Wizardru and the others do, but that has to do with the players.
Ok rambling off, the hear of what I was trying to get at is that if you've played with a group and have been able to not kill each other(IRL) through 20 levels, then you should be able to know the strengths of the party and challenge them anyhow.
CCamfield said:
Being a DM of a high-level game as well as playing in one I think I've got some insight into the problems you're talking about. The biggest reason people have trouble in high-level games is that they simply don't understand everything that can (and probably will) be going on in their world. High-level characters can do some pretty amazing things, but they've gained these powers over time, and the majority of them were approved by the DM, so there should be some familiarity with what the players can and can't do. So the real problem with the high-level play is in keeping up with the abilities of the players, and crafting adventures to challenge the players.
Some people have mentioned Piratecat's story hour as a good example of keeping up with a high level party. The example about divination and knowing what's going on but being unable to act directly to solve the problem, for fear of retaliation. Alot of that has to do with having good players (A DM's best friend) but it has just as much to do with preperation and dedication. I personnally look at Piratecat, Wizardru, (contact), and Sepulchrave's story hours and wonder how the heck they come up with the stuff they do. As a lazy DM I'm lucky that there's only one player in my campaign (my brother) and that he's content to be the Thieves-guild leader in Greyhawk. My high-level stuff doesn't have to take into account alot of the stuff Wizardru and the others do, but that has to do with the players.
Ok rambling off, the hear of what I was trying to get at is that if you've played with a group and have been able to not kill each other(IRL) through 20 levels, then you should be able to know the strengths of the party and challenge them anyhow.
Bendris Noulg said:
Obviously, if i'm rationalizing my experiences, that reason has to have a basis in fact. It can't only apply to me. You, in all your self-obsessed insanity, think i'm addressing your game directly, as oppossed to the abstract type of game you are setting up. You have communicated the impression of your experiences, and some very broad plothooks, but you certainly haven't demonstrated any 'ability' or logic that discounts my basic contentions that A) such broad, convoluted event-based plots rob players of control and B) that many players, including my own, prefer DnDs heavy fantasy as well as a sense of control; this last one of course ties into you hypocritical assertion that i'm doing something wrong and if I were to play your game, I would love it.
But what is substance to the doped up fool?
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Unseelie
First Post
jasamcarl said:I would just like to add that two fools does not equal someone who can actually win arguments.
To be fair, there isn't even an arguement here to win... just a pissing contest.
They're both right... and they're both wrong depending on which game and which GM we're talking about.
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Bendris Noulg
First Post
Problem, bub, is that you didn't present these as your "experience". You got up on your pedestal and proclaimed it a universal truth, denouncing anything said otherwise with insinuations of railroading, hand-holding, and power-dming towards those that do otherwise than you. If you had presented them as your experience, I would have simply offered my sympathies for your unfortunate gaming experiences and wished you better luck in the future. However, you didn't.jasamcarl said:
More insinuations, eh? Gee, this is a productive conversation, isn't it? And, no, I didn't take it as me, directly, at first; I simply tried to indicate that such things are possible without the issues you indicated. However, as before, you refuted such possibilities as universally impossible rather than simply stating that you hadn't had the good fortune of experiencing otherwise.
A: I see no reason to contradict this since I never argued it. However, going with a published source, good ol' Palace of the Silver Princes (B3, was it?) presented a low level (1-3) adventure where the PCs save a kingdom. Forgive me for using archaic references (my 3E adventure knowledge is a little shaky since I stopped buying pre-made adventures nearly 10 years ago), but doesn't the Master of the Desert Nomads series (4-8 or something like that) have the PCs stemming a major invasion of the "known world" of Expert D&D?
So, no, I'm not going to try to prove something that published material already validates.
B: I would never attempt to contradict that, as WotC went through great pains to figure out what would attract the average American (with their 6th Grade Reading Level) to a new edition and, judging on how things have gone, they were right. And, of course, I don't think you would enjoy my game. Your favoritism towards high-powered magic, lack of belief that low-level characters can be influential, and obvious prejudice against anything otherwise is rather clear and I would never consider waisting either your time nor mine in such a futile effort.
Now, to point: You have yet to prove that low powered games are only the purview of railroading power-dms. Although, now, you have admitted that this earlier claim is only the result of your personal (and thus limited) experience, so perhaps you don't need to.
Doped up? That's an interesting statement. What, prey tell, would indicate that I'm "doped up"? Or is this just another insinuation aimed at discrediting my statements without any burden of proof?But what is substance to the doped up fool?
Yes, I think it's the later... It's about all I've seen from you with any consistacy.
Zad
First Post
I just can't resist the urge to chime in.
First off, understand this isn't a slam or an admonishment in any way, but if you haven't actually done high level play, then you need to actually do it before you worry too much about it. Wizardru said it, Piratecat said it, and it's true. It's one thing to read about it and think about what it might be like, and another thing entirely to actually play it.
Second, regarding teleportation - it's not that big a deal and I'm having a hard time seeing why anyone is worried about it. When you're low level, the journey is half the adventure. Roaming bandits, goblin attacks, whatever - it adds flavor and makes it interesting. But by the time you're high level, there is absolutely nothing you're going to meet on the road that is any threat, so why bother fussing over the details of the trip? It is, as we have dubbed it thanks to Wulf, a torch-lighting issue. In other words it's a detail that adds no fun or flavor to the gameplay, and is therefore not worth worrying about. Remember - the objective is to have fun. If we spend 30 minutes discussing the minute details of our travel to a place we go frequently as a high level party, then it's probably not fun. Add to this the fact that in high level play you usually need to cover more geography and the effect is magnified. In short, travel magic lets you skip over uninteresting parts and get to the rich and flavorful parts of the game, whatever that may be for your group.
Divination is in the same category. And the cited DM's know this perfectly well - there are ways to avoid divinations spilling the beans. But let me give you something from the player's point of view: We don't use divinations much. Why? Because they all seem to suffer from one fatal flaw: you have to know what you want to know. You need a specific question, often a yes/no question, to get meaningful information. And you can never find out what you really really want to know: why? It always comes back to why in plot elements and that's hard to find with divinations. That doesn't even begin to address the means, magical and mundane, that BBEGs can use to foil such things.
Let's go back to the original question: he doesn't "get" high level D&D. I disagree that D&D is different - every game system I've been in has player advancement as a primary element and this is no different. But if you don't get it, I really think the answer is to try it. And I don't suggest whipping up 15th level characters - start down low and work your way up.
Heck everyone was initially freaked out about the transition into epic levels and while yes, it's a little different, it's not like you wake up one day and the world is turned upside down. It's a gradual progression, just like going from 10th to 15th to 20th was.
If you listen to nothing else, go back and read what Pcat and Wizardru said, and then go read story hours of successful high level campaigns - high level play can be rich and rewarding and is not nearly as scary as many people think.
If you want story references (most have already been mentioned but here's a list with specifics). There are more such as (contact) but I am not as familiar with them.
Sepulchrave's (actually in a series of different posts so you'll have to hunt a little): Gives a fantastic example of how to take PC's from movers on a localized scale up to world- and plane-shaking forces. Incredibly rich story rife with moral dilemma.
Piratecat's: a first stop for anyone trying to see how to take a group from low powered to very high powered, and how to keep a high level group challenged and motivated. They have all the tricks at their disposal and they use them, and it doesn't break anything.
Wizardru's: Disclaimer - yeah I play in it and I write the damn thing too. Start with a group at level 1 and over the course of a few years take them into epic levels. Plot threads cross all over the place, and divination magic is nearly useless not because it's frustrated but because the plots are so complicated that the players don't know what to ask. Six fully developed, rich characters progress in their lives each with their own motivations and subplots and get to use their hard earned powers rather than feel nullified.
There are quality DM's on these boards with experience who are willing to share and they've done it a lot - all anyone has to do is listen.
First off, understand this isn't a slam or an admonishment in any way, but if you haven't actually done high level play, then you need to actually do it before you worry too much about it. Wizardru said it, Piratecat said it, and it's true. It's one thing to read about it and think about what it might be like, and another thing entirely to actually play it.
Second, regarding teleportation - it's not that big a deal and I'm having a hard time seeing why anyone is worried about it. When you're low level, the journey is half the adventure. Roaming bandits, goblin attacks, whatever - it adds flavor and makes it interesting. But by the time you're high level, there is absolutely nothing you're going to meet on the road that is any threat, so why bother fussing over the details of the trip? It is, as we have dubbed it thanks to Wulf, a torch-lighting issue. In other words it's a detail that adds no fun or flavor to the gameplay, and is therefore not worth worrying about. Remember - the objective is to have fun. If we spend 30 minutes discussing the minute details of our travel to a place we go frequently as a high level party, then it's probably not fun. Add to this the fact that in high level play you usually need to cover more geography and the effect is magnified. In short, travel magic lets you skip over uninteresting parts and get to the rich and flavorful parts of the game, whatever that may be for your group.
Divination is in the same category. And the cited DM's know this perfectly well - there are ways to avoid divinations spilling the beans. But let me give you something from the player's point of view: We don't use divinations much. Why? Because they all seem to suffer from one fatal flaw: you have to know what you want to know. You need a specific question, often a yes/no question, to get meaningful information. And you can never find out what you really really want to know: why? It always comes back to why in plot elements and that's hard to find with divinations. That doesn't even begin to address the means, magical and mundane, that BBEGs can use to foil such things.
Let's go back to the original question: he doesn't "get" high level D&D. I disagree that D&D is different - every game system I've been in has player advancement as a primary element and this is no different. But if you don't get it, I really think the answer is to try it. And I don't suggest whipping up 15th level characters - start down low and work your way up.
Heck everyone was initially freaked out about the transition into epic levels and while yes, it's a little different, it's not like you wake up one day and the world is turned upside down. It's a gradual progression, just like going from 10th to 15th to 20th was.
If you listen to nothing else, go back and read what Pcat and Wizardru said, and then go read story hours of successful high level campaigns - high level play can be rich and rewarding and is not nearly as scary as many people think.
If you want story references (most have already been mentioned but here's a list with specifics). There are more such as (contact) but I am not as familiar with them.
Sepulchrave's (actually in a series of different posts so you'll have to hunt a little): Gives a fantastic example of how to take PC's from movers on a localized scale up to world- and plane-shaking forces. Incredibly rich story rife with moral dilemma.
Piratecat's: a first stop for anyone trying to see how to take a group from low powered to very high powered, and how to keep a high level group challenged and motivated. They have all the tricks at their disposal and they use them, and it doesn't break anything.
Wizardru's: Disclaimer - yeah I play in it and I write the damn thing too. Start with a group at level 1 and over the course of a few years take them into epic levels. Plot threads cross all over the place, and divination magic is nearly useless not because it's frustrated but because the plots are so complicated that the players don't know what to ask. Six fully developed, rich characters progress in their lives each with their own motivations and subplots and get to use their hard earned powers rather than feel nullified.
There are quality DM's on these boards with experience who are willing to share and they've done it a lot - all anyone has to do is listen.
Wombat
First Post
As I admitted, I have not run any high level adventures for 3.x. Last time I ran a high level D&D campaign ... well, the PHB was called "Men & Magic"
Between then and now, I played no D&D -- about 20 years off from it.
Now I am back, but I will freely admit to massive readjustment syndrome.
Between then and now, I played no D&D -- about 20 years off from it.
Now I am back, but I will freely admit to massive readjustment syndrome.
Piratecat
Sesquipedalian
Bendris, Nightfall, Jasamcarl - you guys are way out of line, and you darn well know it. Leave that arguments somewhere else, please; I don't want to see them here.
And on that note, I'll post some high-lvl thoughts tomorrow. I trust that I won't have closed the thread by then.
And on that note, I'll post some high-lvl thoughts tomorrow. I trust that I won't have closed the thread by then.
Bendris Noulg
First Post
>Head dips in shame...<Piratecat said:I trust that I won't have closed the thread by then.
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