I don't get the arguments for bioessentialism

[Corinnguard]

Also what even is evil in this context - like, if you're really assigning some "biological evil" to a species, what exactly is that "evil"?

According to Wikipedia, there are two different kinds of evil IRL. The first is Moral Evil, which is often the result of a person who engages in vice, either through intention or negligence. The second is Natural Evil, which does not involve a perpetrator. It's often the result of natural processes and it's seen as evil from the perspective of those affected and who perceive it an affliction. Examples include cancer, birth defects, tornadoes, earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, and other phenomena which inflict suffering with apparently no accompanying mitigating good.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I'm wondering if he ever would have imagined Bullroarer Took as strong as the strongest part-ogre person* or whatever (not just as strong as a typical part-ogre person, but as strong as the strongest one). I am certainly willing to drop my objection as not being a good objection to many, but the problem for me isn't that it breaks the stereotype for the halflings, but that it breaks the ability to play into all of the would-presumably be physically strongest big ones*. **

* insert some tangent about the best of the Elves vs. best of the anything else
** insert some tangent about "strength"s conflation with combat ability in D&D
*** insert disclaimer about I would rather have the limits gone from the game than have a bunch of past iterations of them, especially the way the mental stats are done and the flexibility they stifle

I have to admit I can't quite tell what side of the debate you are coming down on from that post, but if the design goal is to convey the sense that half-ogres are more powerful than halflings, I would give half-ogres an ability that doesn't directly increase their damage in melee combat (which would make them a trap choice for melee combatants) but that otherwise expresses size and strength. Increased carrying capacity, resistance to being shoved, advantage on "bend bars/lift gates" kinds of actions, bonus to Intimidation ("Fezzik, rip his arms off"), etc.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

So, there's a nice example from a commonly known fiction we can look to: Klingons.

At one point (I think it might have been in ST: ENT, but i might be wrong on that), Trek makes it clear that all the Klingon obsession with combat and glory is cultural. A Klingon scientist (!) notes to a Starfleet officer that there was a time, not all that long ago in Trek-terms, in which Klingons valued science and literature, and all. But, for reasons, a cult of Kahless came to cultural dominance, and, then everything went to heck in a handbasket with "warrior culture".

All that stuff where another Klingon asks Worf, "Do you feel the call of battle in your blood?" are trying to portray their culture as a bio-essentialist fact.

And that's the problem with bio-essentialism, in a nutshell.

Well said. Clearly, biologically Klingons are relatively well-suited to war/combat (at least compared to other species, it kind of cancels out if fighting each other), in that they're stronger than humans, have more redundant physiology (i.e. extra heart, backup spine-equivalent, etc.), grow up really fast (about twice as fast as a human), and so on, but humans are incredibly well-suited to jogging and long-distance walking, doesn't mean have to make their our primary identity!

Even their much-vaunted pain tolerance seems to actually be cultural, because it seems like Dax has learned it, and Worf struggles to.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

(of course part of that could have been huge target vs. fast little target)

Yeah I would identify that as the primary trope in play there. Size difference affecting chance to hit is something some editions have engaged with - most notably 3E.

 

[Cadence]

I have to admit I can't quite tell what side of the debate you are coming down on from that post, but if the design goal is to convey the sense that half-ogres are more powerful than halflings, I would give half-ogres an ability that doesn't directly increase their damage in melee combat (which would make them a trap choice for melee combatants) but that otherwise expresses size and strength. Increased carrying capacity, resistance to being shoved, advantage on "bend bars/lift gates" kinds of actions, bonus to Intimidation ("Fezzik, rip his arms off"), etc.

I think within the D&Disms of Str, AC, and Hp what you say is very good. The other I wonder about is physical size and usable weapons - can a halfling meaningfully use a sword as big as what a goliath could use just from height? But weapon sizing matching characters doesn't seem a thing in a lot of fantasy material from the past decade or two, and I doubt D&D wants to go down a big table of trade-offs of initiative/to-hit/damage.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I think within the D&Disms of Str, AC, and Hp what you say is very good. The other I wonder about is physical size and usable weapons - can a halfling meaningfully use a sword as big as what a goliath could use just from height? But weapon sizing matching characters doesn't seem a thing in a lot of fantasy material from the past decade or two, and I doubt D&D wants to go down a big table of trade-offs of initiative/to-hit/damage.

Yeah 3E absolutely engaged hard with that concept and honestly, I think it found out that it's not terribly productive or entertaining compared to how annoying it is to deal with!

 

[Bill Zebub]

Not directly commenting on the biological determinism in RPGs, but in terms of mechanical limits: for a lot of us, working around/against those limits is part of the fun. Playing against type isn't nearly as satisfying when doing so requires zero tradeoffs or sacrifice. I don't want my halfling barbarian to be effortlessly as strong as the other player's goliath barbarian, I want them to kick butt despite the limitations they're operating under. It's hard to push against the limits of the system when the system lets you do whatever you want.

Why is it not an acceptable solution to voluntarily take the lower scores? (I.e., play a Dwarf sorcerer, but put your low scores/bonuses into a traditional Dwarf attributes.). That way you get to play the way you want, and other people get to play the way they want?

 

[Bill Zebub]

I think within the D&Disms of Str, AC, and Hp what you say is very good. The other I wonder about is physical size and usable weapons - can a halfling meaningfully use a sword as big as what a goliath could use just from height? But weapon sizing matching characters doesn't seem a thing in a lot of fantasy material from the past decade or two, and I doubt D&D wants to go down a big table of trade-offs of initiative/to-hit/damage.

Weapon size constraints make just as much logical sense as attribute limitations...which I freely admit make sense...the question is what is the most fun for the most people?

It seems to me the verisimilitude fans can just choose (as I just mentioned above) to voluntarily take lower scores and smaller weapons, while letting other people make other choices that are fun for them. Nobody has to house rule.

EDIT: And in response to "it ruins my immersion if other people play Str 20 halfling barbarians with greataxes" my response is that if you play with somebody like that there is a mismatch at the table, not a problem with the rules.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

I don't think the goal here should be finding a formulaic way to avoid racist tropes. The best way to avoid racist tropes is to educate yourself on them, or collaborate with someone who is educated, and then not use them.

That's very pessimistic. The goal should be to educate other people so they are no longer unusable because despicable people used them for their nefarious purpose.

Removing lesser than humans and better than humans (probably the fetishizing of the aryan race by Nazis) leave "human" as the only usable trope.

 

[The Firebird]

Why is it not an acceptable solution to voluntarily take the lower scores? (I.e., play a Dwarf sorcerer, but put your low scores/bonuses into a traditional Dwarf attributes.). That way you get to play the way you want, and other people get to play the way they want?

In that case you know that the limit is not imposed by the world, so the act of playing against type loses its salience.