I don't get the dislike of healing surges

[KidSnide]

is the problem that there's no normal-combat wound that can be healed by magic, but not by preternatural healing like that of the warlord? Because that's about the only difference 'knowing' a wound is 'mortal' when it's inflicted, rather than when the character dies of it would make - this guy has a punctured spleen, an encouraging speech isn't gong to save him, bring on the divine band-aids or he dies. Is that the distinction you're missing?

At least for me, that exactly the problem. When a character drops, I'd like that to be narratively associated with an actual serious wound.

Personally, I'd put Inspiring Word and Healing Word on the same level (i.e. both are spiritual/moral encouragement and neither heal actual physical wounds by themselves). I'd like to see a rule where - to bandage someone who has fallen down - the character must move adjacent to the character and either make a healing check or use some other ability to stabalize the character before they can stand up with a healing surge.

If martial healers aren't quite as good as divine healers, and there is an extra tactical reason to heal someone before they go down (rather than the current bizarrely unintuitive incentive to heal after the character goes down), then that's all for the best.

I don't mind magic that binds wounds, and I don't mind yelling across the room to inspire a bruised and exhausted character to keep fighting. But I don't like yelling across the room to inspire an unconscious character back to his feet. That always struck me as very odd.

-KS

 

[Mort]

That isn't what you said and it isn't what I challenged.

You said in 4E it is no different than any prior edition because there was no condition of being truly wounded.

But you are wrong because the fact that the condition can be very short lived in 3E doesn't make that condition no exist.

Under the rules of 3E a fighter alone in the wounds can survive a fight but be in need of healing that make take several days without finding aid.

In 4E a fighter alone in the woods who survives a fight can surge away any damage taken.

The previous potential for being in a state of being wounded and needing healing is now gone.

Only if you look at simple physical damage, which has always had wonky treatment in every iteration of D&D.

If you really want to harrass a 4e party simply use poisons, diseases and offshoots of that mechanic. A fighter alone in the woods who gets infected with some disease - he's not surging that away. Very easy to introduce other such conditions. I did this to my group a few sessions ago, a romp through a disease infested sewer ended up with half of them suffering from filth fever. You can't just surge it away and resting is a gamble because resting and failing a save will make it worse (in addition to taking lots of time the party didn't have). This really added a fun dynamic as the group had to weigh running back to get magical healing or finishing the time sensative mission. They powered through and finished the mission but the disease track added a fun new element.

I think actual data trumps your assessment. But, for sake of argument, lets presume you are correct.

Do you agree that your assessment offers nothing to "outliers" such as myself and that us "outliers" have decent reason to dislike surges? What do surges offer to us "outliers" that doesn't reduce the quality of the game.

I haven't read through the whole thread so have no idea if these concepts have already been beaten to death but there are so many things surges can do that were hard to model in prior edditions.

Easy example fatigue - best way to model fatigue I have yet seen in any edition of D&D. I love the fact that some rituals (such as knock) fatigue the caster (ie drain a surge) I wish this would be done more often.

Again, you are focusing on the GAME and completely ignoring the STORY.
Hypothetically let's agree that fighter 1 in a 3E game kills some BBEGs, loses HP and then gets back to full HP. And fighter 2 in a 4E games does exactly the same thing.

Yes, mechanically they are equal. But the equality ends there.

In the 3E game the fighter may have taken wounds which required significant time to recover from. It is only the application of divine aid that removes the wounds quickly.

In 4E you can describe the exact same wounds. But then you need to describe the fighter simply making them disappear. And not in a Jack Bauer, fight-now go to hospital when the terrorists are dead way, but in a the wounds are gone forever just because way. Or you can limit your story in such a way that the fighter may not ever be truly wounded. Both options work for 4E. But you may not describe wounds which require true healing and maintain a quality narrative.

As stated above, my group was faced with this exact (hard) choice and it worked great. I don't think you have to limit the story at all and in fact there are now outlets for more stories. HPs haven't gotten that much more abstract then they've always been (come on in 3e you received HPs back based on level which caused weird issues of the high HP fighters technically "healing" more slowly than the mage - how's that for odd?).

And, just as an aside, my current PF game has no cleric.....

Interesting, and are you saying the DM is not compensating at all - or that you're groups playstyle has not had to change to accomodate the lack of magical healing?

 

[Imaro]

Easy example fatigue - best way to model fatigue I have yet seen in any edition of D&D. I love the fact that some rituals (such as knock) fatigue the caster (ie drain a surge) I wish this would be done more often.

How does this model fatigue? I think the 3.5 "fatigue" condition does a much better job than this, loosing a healing surge doesn't in any way affect your actions or effectiveness in performing actions like one would expect being fatigued to do and, if one is able to rest before running out of healing surges... has no discernible effect at all.

 

[avin]

Interesting, and are you saying the DM is not compensating at all - or that you're groups playstyle has not had to change to accomodate the lack of magical healing?

Bards heal in 3.5

 

[Mallus]

This thread has gotten me thinking of some ways I'd modify 4e's hit point and healing surge mechanics in a (currently hypothetical) new 4e campaign.

I'd tie Healing Surges to successful saving throws, and reintroduce pre-4e permanent conditions. For example, a PC would burn a healing surge on a successful save vs. a medusa's gaze attack.

Rationalization: averting their gaze or shaking the petrification off depleted some of their heroic luck, meaning it's going to harder to turn the next sword blow into a graze.

More swingy-ness than present, but still more cushion than 1e.

I'd take the (relatively) old advice to use a modified disease track for serious wounds. A "serious wound" being any that drops a PC below zero, even if subsequent use of a surge brings them back to positive. That gives a concrete way of differentiating between "real" wounds and minor bruising, meaning easier narration of injury --not that I had a real problem with it under the 4e RAW-- plus the potential for lasting consequences.

Finally, I'd cut HP and number of surges across the board, like people have been suggesting since 4e hit, to reduce combat length and increase tension

I think with a few tweaks like these you'd get something which combines the best features of both 4e and 1e combat.

 

[Mort]

How does this model fatigue? I think the 3.5 "fatigue" condition does a much better job than this, loosing a healing surge doesn't in any way affect your actions or effectiveness in performing actions like one would expect being fatigued to do

Losing healing surges forces the player to seriously consider resting and recuperating before moving forward while at the same time avoiding the death spiral effect commonly associated with other mechanics that model this. Further the healing surge mechanic actually means the character will (barring very high level magics and effects) hit a wall where not resting is a really, really bad idea as oposed to 3.5 where even low level healing can keep a character up near indefinately.

and, if one is able to rest before running out of healing surges... has no discernible effect at all.

Not sure I get this - of course resting cures fatigue (it cures the fatigued and exhausted condition in 3.5 too). It may not cure some of the other conditions I discussed in my post though, for DMs wanting to impose more lasting penalties.

 

[Imaro]

Losing healing surges forces the player to seriously consider resting and recuperating before moving forward while at the same time avoiding the death spiral effect commonly associated with other mechanics that model this. Further the healing surge mechanic actually means the character will (barring very high level magics and effects) hit a wall where not resting is a really, really bad idea as oposed to 3.5 where even low level healing can keep a character up near indefinately.

Again... how does this model fatigue? Fatigue usually has an impact on one's ability to perform tasks... In 3.5 "fatigued" is a condition that causes a character to take a -2 to Dex and Str...which has nothing to do with hit points, it affects a characters performance and requires 8 hours of rest to remove the condition... and if the character does anything else that would cause them to be fatigued they become exhausted instead.

Loosing a surge has no effect whatsoever on your immediate performance (you are just as good at doing everything as you were before loosing the healing surge) thus I am asking what part of this models being fatigued in any way?

Not sure I get this - of course resting cures fatigue (it cures the fatigued and exhausted condition in 3.5 too). It may not cure some of the other conditions I discussed in my post though, for DMs wanting to impose more lasting penalties.

What exactly is the downside to being fatigued in loosing a healing surge? You are still able to perform all actions as if in tip top shape... You would have to reach the point where the loss of healing surges actually impede you in some way, and this is dependant upon so many factors that it seems a horrible way to model being fatigued since for some it will have virtually no effect (and thus they will rest and it will be like nothing happened), while for others it may have a slight to serious effect but nothing that seems to speak to one being fatigued..

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm with Imaro 100% here.

 

[BryonD]

Only if you look at simple physical damage, which has always had wonky treatment in every iteration of D&D.

We are talking about surges. We are also talking about physical damage.
Are you conceding that topic and asking to move on?

If you really want to harrass a 4e party simply use poisons, diseases and offshoots of that mechanic. A fighter alone in the woods who gets infected with some disease - he's not surging that away.

Right, he isn't surging them away. This thread is about surges. So talking about things that have no relation to surges isn't informative.

I'm not certain off the top of my head, but I'll presume for simplicity that 4E is equal in merit to 3E with regard to diseases.

If I can choose between good for disease and good for wounds against good for disease and bad for wounds, I'll choose the former.

 

[BryonD]

I'm with Imaro 100% here.

Me too.