I don't get the dislike of healing surges

[JamesonCourage]

In 4e, the rules for this are fairly clear - to make that inspection takes a standard action, and triggers a Heal check. If the Heal check succeeds, then the inspection reveals that the fallen PC is not dying. If the Heal check fails, then the inspection reveals that the fallen PC may well be in mortal trouble (although the inspecting healer is not certain of that).

Is that an inspection, or is that treating the wound? The PC in question was just inspecting the wound, not treating it, in what I'm discussing.

Just adding to [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s response - either the monsters are low level in which case the play is mechanically unsatisfying, or the monsters are levelled up or in sufficient numbers to pose a thread, in which case we won't get cinematic healing (which was the initial context in which JamesonCourage suggested using the level scale to move from gritty to cinematic). If the monsters pose a mechanicaly significant threat then we'll get real injuries with gritty healing times (assuming pre-4e natural healing).

From my experience of cinematic moments in fantasy movies (Conan, LotR, etc.), most people that fight the "PCs" are just out of their league, and have no real chance of hurting them. That is, Conan can kill 20 guys, but might lose to either one of the priests in a one on one fight. In the LotR movies, Boromir can fight many orcs at once, but Lurtz can fell him with several arrows. So, like I suggested, if you want a cinematic feel, have the players be higher level, have them fight a horde of goblins or other low level creatures, but add another threat if you want them to be legitimately challenged. In most cinematic moments in fantasy movies, the minions aren't much of a threat, and might only be one if they sneak up on a hero and put a sword to the back of their neck.

If you want gritty, play lower level, where those goblins are a real threat, no matter how skilled you are. This just isn't the case from what I've observed of cinematic fantasy movies. As always, play what you like

 

[Griego]

Yes he can, he just has to recover surges first.

Surges recover easily and ALL wounds are fully removable by surges.

The distinction of potentially needed to recharge surges does nothing to mitigate the fact that surges remain capable of removing any and every wound.

Yeah, by taking a 6-hour rest. Sounds pretty risky for your hypothetical lone fighter in the woods.

 

[LostSoul]

Yes he can, he just has to recover surges first.

Surges recover easily and ALL wounds are fully removable by surges.

The distinction of potentially needed to recharge surges does nothing to mitigate the fact that surges remain capable of removing any and every wound.

It's the same for a low-HP 3E character. Surprisingly, the high-HP 3E character needs to rest a whole lot more to get rid of the same degree of wounds.

I can't think of ANY cinematic example of frail characters recovering quicker than hardy characters from the same degree of wound.

 

[Nagol]

It's the same for a low-HP 3E character. Surprisingly, the high-HP 3E character needs to rest a whole lot more to get rid of the same degree of wounds.

I can't think of ANY cinematic example of frail characters recovering quicker than hardy characters from the same degree of wound.

The fact that Game A has a problematic mechanic is NOT mitigated by different problematic mechanics in Game B.

 

[Hussar]

The fact that Game A has a problematic mechanic is NOT mitigated by different problematic mechanics in Game B.

It is when people are claiming that Game B has created problems where none existed before. The fact that there ARE problems in Game A means that the changes in Game B are generally coming from a position of trying to resolve Game A's problems.

Granted, that might create new problems. Fair enough. But, it does mean that you can't keep touting Game A as THE ONE TRUE GAME that is beyond any criticism.

The Healing Surge mechanics might suffer from issues when it comes to narrating wounds particularly when a PC is facing death saves. Fair enough. But, the reason we have Healing Surges in the first place was to resolve issues created by earlier D&D's reliance on magical healing.

It's all about checks and balances. You'll never create the perfect system that is all things to all people. So, you pick and choose where to make changes in an attempt to create a middle ground. People had problems with the idea that the group needed a magical healer and all the knock on effects that resulted in. So, they removed the need for a magical healer at the expense (possibly) of some people's ability to narrate effectively.

Is the trade off worth it? Well, that's for the consumer to decide.

 

[Nagol]

It is when people are claiming that Game B has created problems where none existed before. The fact that there ARE problems in Game A means that the changes in Game B are generally coming from a position of trying to resolve Game A's problems.

Granted, that might create new problems. Fair enough. But, it does mean that you can't keep touting Game A as THE ONE TRUE GAME that is beyond any criticism.

The Healing Surge mechanics might suffer from issues when it comes to narrating wounds particularly when a PC is facing death saves. Fair enough. But, the reason we have Healing Surges in the first place was to resolve issues created by earlier D&D's reliance on magical healing.

It's all about checks and balances. You'll never create the perfect system that is all things to all people. So, you pick and choose where to make changes in an attempt to create a middle ground. People had problems with the idea that the group needed a magical healer and all the knock on effects that resulted in. So, they removed the need for a magical healer at the expense (possibly) of some people's ability to narrate effectively.

Is the trade off worth it? Well, that's for the consumer to decide.

In my example A was 4e and B was 3.X; I think you got them reversed , but the order really doesn't matter.

The OP asked what people's issues with healing surges were, not what issues people expereinced with any other game system. Do I like the healing in 3.X? No, not really. The natural recovery is far too fast for my taste.

If there were any posts suggesting 3.X was above reproach, I must have missed them. I certainly have a quite a few complaints against the system though I still run it, but those complaints have no bearing on my critique of a mechanic in different game.

Every system is about emulating a genre and building mechanics that meet specific expectations for play as best as the designers can. My critique addresses the mechanic as presented; why the designers chose to include it, whether as a reaction to other perceived problems or because they simply prefer its effect on game play, I cannot comment on.

I acknowledge that most of my issues with 4e -- and healing surges are no exception -- are my preferred play expectations for the sub-genre I would use these rules to cover appears to vary greatly from the designers. In fact, I would go so far as to say the play style these rules fit well is one I don't enjoy.

 

[Derren]

One easy way to make both sides happy (imo) would be to combine the Vitality/Wound system from the old Star Wars game with Healing Surges.

Vitality represents skill/luck/fatigue/whatever so there is no problem explaining how to recover them with a quick, nonmagical prep talk.
Wounds are real physical resistances which can't be healed unless with magic, treat wounds (with limits) or resting.

Except for some special circumstances (for example the infamous falling damage) you have to go through the Vitality first before getting wounded.

 

[Hussar]

Honestly, I have no problems putting in a wounds/vitality system. The only thing I would worry about is that it's just one more thing you have to track.

And, really, if you have to blow through vitality to get to wounds, why bother? Wouldn't it simply be easier to add in a rider effect on making death saves? I mean, the Raise Dead ritual has the following rider:

The subject returns with a death penalty: –1 to all attack rolls, skill checks, saving throws, and ability checks. This death penalty fades after the subject reaches three milestones.

Why not do the same thing with death saves? Every failed death save eats a healing surge and adds a cumulative penalty to something or other? That way, dropping below zero hit points has lasting impact and while you might get the healing surges back after a complete rest, the penalties (and possibly the healing surges too - after all the disease track rules allow for blocking the spending of healing surges) stay with you until you achieve a certain number of milestones.

Would work fairly easily and not require any new rules.

 

[BryonD]

It's the same for a low-HP 3E character. Surprisingly, the high-HP 3E character needs to rest a whole lot more to get rid of the same degree of wounds.

I can't think of ANY cinematic example of frail characters recovering quicker than hardy characters from the same degree of wound.

1) I readily agree that the 3E model could be improved and I'm eager to consider options that improve it. I would not agree that having some issues with the 3E system makes it remotely ok to add further problems with no narrative merit.

2) We spent a ton of time in this thread debating the abstract vs. real elements of hit points and you are now basing a complaint on the assumption that wounds to high HP and low HP characters represent the same degree of physical harm. Both wounding and healing in 3E include physical and abstract concepts in harmony. The problem with surges is that they force 100% of the healing to be abstract because there is no such thing as a wound they can't heal.

Suppose a low level fighter and a high level fighter are together out in the woods and both survive an encounter but each have just 1 HP left at the end of the fight. Now they have no healing available but time and natural healing. For sake of discussing healing, we will assume they find a safe place hole up. You are correct that the low level fighter will be back to 100% hit points more quickly than the high level fighter. But there is no narrative or cinematic disconnect in saying that the low level fighter is physically healed before his full HP are restored and the last few HP represent the abstract "karma/luck/fate" element. And, in exactly the same way the high level fighter could return to full physical recovery in the same time. And, it is important to keep in mind that the high level fighter is regaining HP faster than the low level guy, he just has so much more that the healing still takes longer. So it is acceptable to say that they are both fully recovered in exactly the same time. But the high level fighter has both (a) more "fate" already regained on the day they are both healed and (b) will continue to regain fate for days to come, assuming he doesn't have another encounter.

And the key to all that is that, unlike surges, simple HP retains full narrative control because they do include both abstract and physical elements. Surges discard that dynamic for game expediency.

And all that leads to :
3) You can fix surges if you make them acknowledge physical wounds. For example, declare that surges may never heal a character above 50% of full HP. Now Jack Bauer can be battered and bleeding, but he keeps surging back to 50% and saying "yeah, I'll need stitches and the like later, but I don't care right now, I'm here and I'm gonna kick your ass and bleed later."

As long as surges can restore any and all HP damage they don't fit with quality narrative that includes actually being wounded. And the mechanics of surges require that you end up describing all wounds as gone forever, in all ways. I'm not adding anything to that. The 3E HP rules make no requirement on how you describe wounds and healing. You have added something not found in the rules when you declare that the high HP guys takes longer to *physically* recover than the low HP guy.

 

[BryonD]

Yeah, by taking a 6-hour rest. Sounds pretty risky for your hypothetical lone fighter in the woods.

Yes. Agreed.

And surges can still heal any and every wound.