I don't know what just happend, but it seems that Ayn Rand corrupted my player!

[tuxgeo]

< . . . >
And here is the point where Ms. Ayn came into play. One of the players read 'Atlas Shrugged' and braded me a hedonistic DM who enjoys the game on their cost. They all left the conversation room telling me to change my style because only hardcore gamers might considere playing with me at this point.

I didn't read Atlas but I get the point a little bit about hedonism-bad, egoistic-good but this just confused me. Can someone translate what just happend because I still don't know what was their point.

That player was clearly obfuscating. (Blowing smoke.) Rand didn't say anything specifically about RPGs in Atlas Shrugged, if only because she wrote it before RPGs were invented. (That novel is a pretty funny read, though, if you can get through the entire length of it.)

Rand did say stuff about productivity and ownership and benefit; but it's easy to gloss over all that and simply equate Randism with Selfishness. (I consider that to be over-simplification; but that's merely My Humble Opinion.)

As I see it, based on reading your description, you did the right thing: the players wanted immunity from death in your game and you didn't, so the best solution was simply not to play together. Rand has nothing to do with that situation beyond the fact that each of you did follow your own interests by not gaming together; and being true to your own interests is the basis of what she promotes.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Let me reframe:

Assume you were a musician who, along with some buddies, practiced hard to become proficient, then formed a Prog-metal band and hit the road for a statewide tour. It is not authoritarian nor "entitled" of you to refuse to add some light Jazz to your set list merely because someone in the front of the ticket line requests it. They are perfectly within their rights to spend their $$$ elsewhere; they are uncool if they denigrate you for not granting their demands.

 

[DoctorNick]

Let me reframe:

Assume you were a musician who, along with some buddies, practiced hard to become proficient, then formed a Prog-metal band and hit the road for a statewide tour. It is not authoritarian nor "entitled" of you to refuse to add some light Jazz to your set list merely because someone in the front of the ticket line requests it. They are perfectly within their rights to spend their $$$ elsewhere; they are uncool if they denigrate you for not granting their demands.

In this particular analogy, wouldn't the players be the other musicians? And in the situation that one of the other musicians said: "Hey why don't we add a little jazz in there?" we could have a discussion about that because we're all adults doing this thing together. In my case, I would probably be like: "Cool. We do prog rock anyway. Throwing a little jazz in there would probably end up pretty rad." and we could then get into a discussion vis a vis the pros and cons of certain refrains and instrumentations.

Or you know, you could be like the petulent lead singer who takes no input from the band and constantly informs them that they're just along for the ride and you're the real genious. That's cool too.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

In this particular analogy, wouldn't the players be the other musicians?

I get what you're saying, but no. The band as a whole is analogous to the DM.

The reason is that they as a whole put in the same kind and character of effort into the creative process. The band invests in instruments. They teach themselves to play or get instruction-or both- in order to master their chosen instruments. The band composes, practices and preps the music. The band assembles a setlist. The band, having done all of that prep, then asks others to participate in a night of music- fun for them to play for a live audience, fun for the audience to hear and sing along with.

The guy at the front of the line is analogous to the player who wants the DM to cater to his vision of the game. While he may contribute to the concert event with his cheers and singing along, that is a different kind of contribution from any band member.

Assuming he's there to see the band, he's familiar with what the band is likely to play. He may have shared in the experience of the storylines they intend to tell by hearing samples or songs. But before agreeing to enter the venue for the full concert, he asks if the band could tweak their setlist to conform more to his personal taste.

To continue the analogy, when the band refuses, the guy in line decides not only to refuse to pay for a ticket and attend, but also badmouths the band for not adding his favorite Kenny G tunes.

 

[DoctorNick]

I get what you're saying, but no. The band as a whole is analogous to the DM.

The reason is that they as a whole put in the same kind and character of effort into the creative process. The band invests in instruments. They teach themselves to play or get instruction-or both- in order to master their chosen instruments. The band composes, practices and preps the music. The band assembles a setlist. The band, having done all of that prep, then asks others to participate in a night of music- fun for them to play for a live audience, fun for the audience to hear and sing along with.

The guy at the front of the line is analogous to the player who wants the DM to cater to his vision of the game. While he may contribute to the concert event with his cheers and singing along, that is a different kind of contribution from any band member.

Assuming he's there to see the band, he's familiar with what the band is likely to play. He may have shared in the experience of the storylines they intend to tell by hearing samples or songs. But before agreeing to enter the venue for the full concert, he asks if the band could tweak their setlist to conform more to his personal taste.

To continue the analogy, when the band refuses, the guy in line decides not only to refuse to pay for a ticket and attend, but also badmouths the band for not adding his favorite Kenny G tunes.

You and I clearly play RPGs very differently as I don't find your analogy to be very apt. I am having a very hard time wrapping my head around the idea that players who playi PCs are passive consumers of what the DM is putting out.

In your analogy, what is the player's character? What is their in game decisions? Their backstory? To me, the characters would be like their instruments. The player spends a lot of time learning the instrument and how it functions. What dice to roll what combiniation of abilities to use how the instrument responds to certain input. That sort of thing.

For you, is a player character nothing but a lighter held aloft?

 

[Twichyboy]

Ask your players if they would also like to play without dice, after all it would be sad if one of them made a poor decision and things wrong,

Also remove combat from the game, no one wants to get hit and cry

Maybe they can run a nice safe tavern, where none of the bad guys can hurt them, and they can serve the real adventurers.

 

[DoctorNick]

Ask your players if they would also like to play without dice, after all it would be sad if one of them made a poor decision and things wrong,

Also remove combat from the game, no one wants to get hit and cry

Maybe they can run a nice safe tavern, where none of the bad guys can hurt them, and they can serve the real adventurers.

Considering we're only hearing one side of the story, I'm not sure I'm willing to commit to a judgement on the OPs situation per se. His comment about Ayn Rand (while very amusing, I must say) clearly demonstrates that we're not hearing all the pertinent details. However, I'm curious about the level of contempt you seem to hold for people you've never met before. Care to comment on that?

To be honest, the lack of social skills many of you are hinting at is a little shocking. Do you guys really think of playing games as a business transaction?

 

[Celebrim]

Given that in the standard two-axis morality code of D&D, selfishness is generally considered Evil, and tends towards being Chaotic (self over group), does that mean that in D&D terms Objectivism is Chaotic Evil?

Granting that different writers have arranged the two axis system in different ways, selfishness is not necessarily considered 'Evil'. In my game, self-centeredness is considered Chaotic, and stands in oposition to the other-centeredness of Law. Objectivism with its pure self-centeredness and tendency to define all other centeredness as 'evil' therefore is considered a fairly pure example of Chaotic Neutrality, as it might be practiced by a more intellectually follower of this alignment.

Objectivism defines itself in opposition to CG by its rejection of altruism, and in opposition to CE by its rejection of involuntary and unmutual transactions. It is therefore a purer self-centeredness and defines itself in a middle way between what it sees as arbitrary definitions of weal and woe (since it sees altruism and theft as two sides of the same coin).

However, this is something of a tangent. I don't think it was actually Ayn Rand that corrupted the player, and seems more likely to be a failure to communicate brought about by relying too much on philosophy, analogy, and abstraction.

 

[Umbran]

I get what you're saying, but no. The band as a whole is analogous to the DM.

Yes, well, as others are saying, that analogy falls apart, because the players are not usually passive consumers of content. One can argue that they have less work, time, and investment in the endeavor than the GM, and maybe less impact on the result than the GM, but "less" does not mean "negligible".

Gaming is a social endeavor, and that means ultimate rights are often not really the important part.

Does the GM have the "right" to say, "my way or the highway"? Probably.

*Should* the GM say, "my way or the highway"? That's a completely different question.

 

[Desdichado]

To be honest, the lack of social skills many of you are hinting at is a little shocking. Do you guys really think of playing games as a business transaction?

Dude; it's just an analogy.

Although to be fair, sometimes it is. When you sign up for a con or gameday game, or when you're advertising on a store, meetup or gamers seeking gamers type venue, or otherwise playing with people you don't know, then it does start to resemble more a business transaction. You have certain demands for your game, and you try to match those demands up with a supplier (GM) who most closely matches your demands and is available.

Granted, I rarely find that kind of game as satisfying as playing with friends, but it's also not unheard of, and I've had a good time in the past hooking up with groups who were a little light on players and needed to find another, or at cons or gamedays, or online. Heck, sometimes those people even develop into friends that I really enjoy gaming with longterm. In fact, I find that the odds of this happening increase if you approach the initial meet n greet a bit more like a consumer and try to find folks who are likely to want to game with the same taste and preference pallette, more or less, as you.