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I don't understand Gridless combat. HELP!

Keldryn

Adventurer
I really need some help here. Can someone give me insight into the reasoning for playing without a map and minis? I ask because I ran a playtest over the weekend and found that I absolutely hated the combat. I've been playing D&D for just about fifteen years now, and used visualizations for combat for all but maybe my first year.

I am decidedly in favor of having gridless combat be the default in DDN, with grid-based tactical combat being an optional module. I find grid-based combat to be very limiting as a DM and also very time-consuming, both in terms of prep-time before the game and while running the game.

That being said, I admit that I currently have trouble running D&D without miniatures. I've been playing with minis on a grid for years with systems that heavily encouraged their use. Probably even more of a factor is that I've spent much more time playing computer and console RPGs than pencil & paper RPGs, so I'm used to having concrete visual representations of everything. My imagination has become weak from lack of use. I need to get used to running gridless combats again before it will feel natural.

The end result felt like an old Final Fantasy game instead of anything dynamic and fun.
I suspect that the current D&D audience's experiences with computer and video game RPGs is probably the primary reason why many players have trouble visualizing gridless combat. The Final Fantasy analogy is an apt one. The early games had very abstract combat; your character would play an attack animation and a monster would take damage. The rest of the battle was left to your imagination. These early games were much more abstract in general; your party didn't magically collapse into one individual when outside of combat, and your character wasn't the same size as a mountain or a town when walking around the wilderness. Modern games are so visually detailed as to leave very little need for the player to imagine.

I cut my teeth on BECMI D&D (starting in early 1987), and I have fond memories of playing in the car, around the campfire, or sitting outside during lunch hour at school. Minis wouldn't really have been a viable option in those situations, and we never found those games lacking. I did start buying and using minis fairly early on in my games at home, but their use was pretty abstract; we used them for indicating marching order and tracking relative positioning in combat. I mostly bought them because I had fun painting them.

I don't see the appeal of keeping track of sometimes dozens of creatures in my head... especially when the monsters are so terribly bland to begin with. It took all my attention and faculties to just keep track of the basics of what was going on, let alone breathe any kind of flavor or life into the encounters.
My experience was the opposite. When running 4e, it takes all of my attention and faculties just to keep track of monsters' attack powers, auras, triggered actions, and positions on the grid. I found it next to impossible to breathe any kind of flavor or life into the encounters, or to even remember to determine if some monsters should flee instead of fighting to the death. That's more about monster design than gridded combat, however. I prefer "terribly bland" monsters, at least for the majority of combatants, as the fewer stats I need to be aware of, the more attention I can pay to description and fictional context.

What's so bad about the grid? Why not use the tools we have to allow freedom to focus on other aspects of play?
There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the grid itself; it's a valuable tool for running some combat encounters. It becomes a problem when that tool becomes a virtual necessity for running the game. I am aware that it's possible to run 4e without a grid, and some on this board have done that. However, you're working against the system in doing so. For all intents and purposes, I think it's fair to say that 4e assumes and requires the use of a grid.

So what's so bad about the grid?

Keep in mind that none of these are absolutes, just general tendencies or habits that are easy to fall into.

The use of the grid itself naturally draws attention to the visual representation of the battle and away from the DM's narrative of the combat.

The use of the grid can make for a jarring transition between "modes" of gameplay. Free-form, narrative exploration comes to an abrupt halt while the DM sets up the battle grid, and players go from primarily narrative description to moving figures around on a board. Then the grid gets cleaned up and we transition back to a more narrative mode of play.

The grid can take a long time to set up. If you're using Dungeon Tiles, Dwarven Forge pieces, or similar aids, it can take a significant amount of time to locate the desired pieces and put them together. It's best to do this before the game when possible, which can dramatically increase prep time. If you don't do it before the game, it significantly increases the amount of time to run an encounter, and now the players are sitting and waiting. Drawing the map on a wet-erase mat is often a lot faster, but it still takes time, especially if you try to make it look good. I used to try and draw all of my maps in Campaign Cartographer so that I could print them out at 1" = 5' scale, but I ended up spending so many hours of prep time making maps and trying to get them to print properly that I didn't have time to make the adventure interesting.

The grid can make combat take longer to play out. Counting squares takes time, especially when players need to pause on each square to check whether or not they'll provoke an AoO. It's not uncommon for players to know where they want to move to and have to count squares through a few different routes to see if they can get there without getting attacked. Even though it's often fairly obvious just from looking at the grid where an area of effect will hit the most creatures, the precise nature of the grid leads many players to count out the squares anyway, in case their intuition is wrong.

The grid still doesn't eliminate player questions for clarification. Players don't need to ask how far away a creature is or where a creature is standing, but players are still asking a lot of questions about the map. Is that square in the middle of the room a table? What does this squiggle represent again? Those crates extend halfway into this square, can I fit through there? You didn't mention them when you described the room, but are those bottles on the table (on a Dungeon Tile) actually there? Wait, did you say that this table against the wall here was another bookshelf or that it was bench? Tell me again, is the orc figure with the sword the hobgoblin, or is it the orc figure with the spear? Sometimes there end up being more questions than if we'd just run the whole thing without a map.

Reliance on the grid can impose limits on your adventure locations. Adventures in Dungeon magazine are a prime example of what happens to your adventure locations when you try to design your adventures around being able to use Dungeon Tiles to build your battle maps. It's tempting to re-use those pre-printed poster maps instead of drawing or building your own, to save time. When you're designing an adventure and you know that you're going to need to either draw an encounter location on a wet-erase map or build it with Dungeon Tiles, how likely are you to create a location that will be very difficult to create a battle grid for? Consider the dungeon designs in the original Dragonlance Modules, or Castle Ravenloft in module I6. You wouldn't likely see designs like those in a 4e adventure. If I imagine a location that won't be easy to represent on a battle grid, I'm unlikely to actually use it in play.

The grid limits the scale of your encounter areas and makes range categories mostly a non-issue. Unless you have one massive gaming table,
you're going to be lucky to have even a 3' wide battle map, which is 36 squares or 180' in the game world. That can work for dungeons composed of passages and rooms, but not nearly so well for wilderness areas, large caverns, cities, dungeons built by giants, etc. I can't fit a battle map that wide on my table, unless the players keep their character sheets, dice, and snacks on their laps.

Am I a poor DM for preferring clear rules and aids for running a game?
Not at all. Clear rules are important, and having visual aids can make the game run a lot more smoothly. There is a point at which having too much structure becomes stifling, and that's different for each individual. For me, 4e's clearly-defined powers and assumed use of battle grids was well over that line. But I don't function well under a rigid structure in any situation. Give me just enough structure to give me something to get started with, and I'll improvise from there.

The thing that makes theater-of-the-mind play doable and fun is one simple mantra:

Don't sweat the small stuff.

Wish I could give you XP for this. :)
 

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jsaving

Adventurer
I can already feel this conversation is starting to rattle apart. I'm really sorry if I caused any conflict. I'm not very good a forums stuff, and I know my concerns are silly. Thank you all anyway.
Please don't feel bad about your question. People just have different ways of learning, visualizing, etc, and what makes perfect sense to one person in a gaming context may be very counterintuitive to another.

Hopefully you've gotten some sense over the course of this thread of why a fair number of people prefer gridless combat. But there are also a lot of people who like to do it your way. My advice would be for you to do what works best for you and your group, and have fun!
 

whearp

First Post
Now mind, I use a very minimalist approach to my visual aids. I have dungeon tiles, but I quickly grew sick of them for setup time and dealing players constantly focusing on the details on the art. I don't bother with them anymore. I don't use miniatures, actually, as they block vision and can get knocked over. Pre-printed maps also give me the twitches, as they step on my toes too much.

When the time come for a complex battle, I set out interlocking dry-erase tiles and cardboard tokens. I draw simple representative maps, and handle all actual descriptions through descriptive language. I can adjust things quick and easy and don't have to worry about keeping track of positions.

As far as actual play goes, I nor my players are beholden to any rules. We improvise constantly, and I regularly fudge the numbers to keep things fun and fast. I like having the rules there, though, so I don't have to worry so much about the balance of things and can focus my efforts on describing the ever-shifting scene.
 

JRRNeiklot

First Post
Nothing wrong with using a grid. I just don't like being forced into using one. If your game is 90% combat, then you are probably going to want to use a grid. If it's necessary to count every 5 foot square, for tactical movement, you should probably use a grid. If' however, your game is more about exploration and the odd combat here and there, and more about strategy than tactics, then a grid becomes less necessary. I play pre 3e versions, and we generally don't use a grid, or even a battlemap, though sometimes we break it out. Depends on the fight. I'd say do whatever you are comfortable with.
 

whearp

First Post
Nothing wrong with using a grid. I just don't like being forced into using one. If your game is 90% combat, then you are probably going to want to use a grid. If it's necessary to count every 5 foot square, for tactical movement, you should probably use a grid. If' however, your game is more about exploration and the odd combat here and there, and more about strategy than tactics, then a grid becomes less necessary. I play pre 3e versions, and we generally don't use a grid, or even a battlemap, though sometimes we break it out. Depends on the fight. I'd say do whatever you are comfortable with.

Kinda funny how I'm sorta opposite in my feelings. Not that your opinions are wrong, this is all highly subjective. If I were running a very combat heavy game, I think I might want a less tedious method than maps an minis... I can't really say for sure, though, because I prefer very story-heavy games. Fights are few, but very exciting in my group, so it's no big deal having my tokens picked out and drawing out maps to play on. The vast majority of my sessions are spent indulging in pure group story-telling with the odd skill check to keep things fair and interesting.

That leads to another off-subject issue I have with the playtest... unaltered, it's pure dungeon crawl... YUCK! Just not my thing.
 

Agamon

Adventurer
That leads to another off-subject issue I have with the playtest... unaltered, it's pure dungeon crawl... YUCK! Just not my thing.

You need to take the advice included in the rules to heart and make the adventure your own. The skeleton of the adventure is there to be fleshed out however you want. Intrigue and roleplay are lying under the surface, if you want it there, just make it so.

(The only problem with this is that, if you go by RAW, the monsters and PCs don't speak similar languages, you just have to make a change for either side to allow communication)
 

AeroDm

First Post
Not using a grid is nice depending on the room you're playing in. It's comfy to lounge. Some folks also find it helps maintain the fantasy by not constantly referencing the minis. I personally like the grid and will keep using one even if its role becomes less important. I find adding the grid/minis helps people visualize and gives the more tactile gamers something to mess with.
 

Viking Bastard

Adventurer
Now mind, I use a very minimalist approach to my visual aids.

[...]

I draw simple representative maps, and handle all actual descriptions through descriptive language. I can adjust things quick and easy and don't have to worry about keeping track of positions.

As far as actual play goes, I nor my players are beholden to any rules. We improvise constantly, and I regularly fudge the numbers to keep things fun and fast. I like having the rules there, though, so I don't have to worry so much about the balance of things and can focus my efforts on describing the ever-shifting scene.

That sounds a lot like how I run my games. I prefer the grid to be fairly abstract: I use a Chessex battlemat and a box of wooden blocks for terrain. They fit conveniently exactly onto the square grid. And they were cheap, too!

When I bought the battlemat, I also grabbed a Bag O' Munchkins to use as PCs, but I use Risk pieces for enemies, using different colors to represent monster types and different pieces to represent monster roles (cannons as archers, pawns as minions, etc.).

I own a few minis from back when I flirted with Warhammer and I sometimes use them to stand in for some thing or another, but I find I prefer the more abstract visual of the colored pawns to actual minis. In the same way that after I saw the LotR movies, I can't think of Aragorn without picturing Viggo Mortensen, detailed minis and tiles are always going to end up injecting themselves too much into the shared imagery.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
I have always played D&D with a map even in the 70s & 80s but then I played it at a wargames club as a tactical miniatures game

My experience largely resembles this.

With few (but enjoyable) exceptions, most of my gameplay for D&D has used a grid, including my inaugural adventure back in 1977. I didn't play without a grid until almost 3 years later. I just find it easier, and because of this, I have multiple battle maps (hex & square) of various sizes, and a half-ton of minis.

OTOH, playing the purely mental game can be a blast...and can be done anywhere. Even in a moving vehicle.

So, like others before me have said, OP, play however you and your players feel most comfortable.
 
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dd.stevenson

Super KY
You really hit it there, Balesir... I feel like it would have been really helpful for the playtest to have included a little more information on how to run a game within the style the test is in right now. Many DMs and players have come up in the last ten years or so, and we simply don't have the skillset for it. This is a major change for those of us who have embraced setpiece encounters on a grid.

I think it would probably serve their purposes if they were to release a primer on some older playstyle conventions. If for no other reason than to sidestep misunderstandings between former and current customers.

On the other hand, the intro to caves of chaos says pretty dang clearly that the purpose of this playtest is to make sure all the major styles of play are supported. They're not telling you how to play because them doing so is the antithesis of this edition.

Play how you like, tell them how you played and how it worked. That's all they're asking.
 

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