I gave a little, and now they want...

[Telperion]

Just out of curiosity, what PrC was that?

Secret Lover / Silent Lover / Eloquent Lover....Something + Lover.

Sorry, not good with names. Anyway, it had a special ability of finding out every dirty secret in a city that just got better and better with levels. In the end it basically made me feel like I would have to let the player read all the DM material so he would know what is going on all the time. A social PrC that allowed the player to find out all the nice details by simply being inside the city walls. Or that's what the description said, so it's open to interpretation. And the best part was that you could switch cities and get all the nifty details in a few weeks all over again. Of course this required quite a few levels of the PrC, but I just feel that it destroyes the need for conventional spies and such...

Actually there is a prestige class in Secrets & Societies (a Scarred Lands book) that is similar: Courtesan of Idra. Trouble is it's restricted to a highly secretive organisation that accepts (almost) exclusively female members. And I have already cast that organisation into a role, within the campaign, which would make any member an enemy for the PC's. Of course should a PC be converted into this secret society then he might be able to take levels in the PrC.

The main difference between the Courtesan and the Lover is that the first one actually requires roleplaying to gain any information, while the latter doesn't. That's why I don't like the Lover and have banned it from my games.

 

[reiella]

Secret Lover / Silent Lover / Eloquent Lover....Something + Lover.

Sorry, not good with names. Anyway, it had a special ability of finding out every dirty secret in a city that just got better and better with levels. In the end it basically made me feel like I would have to let the player read all the DM material so he would know what is going on all the time. A social PrC that allowed the player to find out all the nice details by simply being inside the city walls. Or that's what the description said, so it's open to interpretation. And the best part was that you could switch cities and get all the nifty details in a few weeks all over again. Of course this required quite a few levels of the PrC, but I just feel that it destroyes the need for conventional spies and such...

Actually there is a prestige class in Secrets & Societies (a Scarred Lands book) that is similar: Courtesan of Idra. Trouble is it's restricted to a highly secretive organisation that accepts (almost) exclusively female members. And I have already cast that organisation into a role, within the campaign, which would make any member an enemy for the PC's. Of course should a PC be converted into this secret society then he might be able to take levels in the PrC.

The main difference between the Courtesan and the Lover is that the first one actually requires roleplaying to gain any information, while the latter doesn't. That's why I don't like the Lover and have banned it from my games.

Hmm, reasonable comments and thoughts .

Just something I think to ask though.

How do you intend to handle Gather Information and/or Bardic Knowledge? While the former most certainly allows for interaction with the world. Bardic Knowledge works by assuming past interaction with the world.

More so curious for my own purposes, as I'm having some personal quandaries with Bardic Knowledge . And err.. guess I'm sorry for the derail.

 

[Telperion]

Hmm, reasonable comments and thoughts .

Just something I think to ask though.

How do you intend to handle Gather Information and/or Bardic Knowledge? While the former most certainly allows for interaction with the world. Bardic Knowledge works by assuming past interaction with the world.

More so curious for my own purposes, as I'm having some personal quandaries with Bardic Knowledge . And err.. guess I'm sorry for the derail.

Gather Information is fairly easy. First the players give me information on how / when / where they are going to perform this action called "gathering information". I consider the limitations and preferences they have set for their characters. Then I request a short list of topics that the characters are interested in. Once again I consider this and then decide upon a DC (between 10 - 30). Depending upon what the players told me it's going to take them anywhere between a few hours to a couple days to accomplish their action. If it's something large, then I usually request one roll per' day.

Bardic Knowledge on the other hand is a bit more difficult. The description says that it is knowledge gained during traveling the lands and talking to a whole lot of people, and also experiencing a lot. Okay, well usually this means that Bardic Knowledge is fairly general in nature, and seldom very specific. It is knowledge that might be common in part of the world, but is nearly unheard of in another.

An example:
A bard visits a city controlled by necromancers, talks to a bunch of people and experiences the place for a while.

He then goes to land that has labeled necromancy as evil and forbidden. A land that has fairly little actual knowledge of it and even fewer practitioners. While in this land the bard comes across a situation where knowledge of the undead is required, but none of the party members has Knowleged (undead) or they fail their Knowledge (arcana) checks. The bard's player decides to go with Bardic Knowledge and comes up with basic information, which might be very useful with the problem at hand.

That's how I handle Bardic Knowledge, although at higher levels and with the proper PrC's, this explanation no longer works. So, it's not flawless.

 

[hong]

4. I'm considering player input. But they know very little about the game world. Although I gave every players a 100 page thick gazetteer to read, that goes trough the main points of the campaign world, there is still about 2000 pages of campaign specific material that they haven't read. And I have. Point made.

You know, it's not really true that if 10 pages of world building is good, then 100 pages of world building is 10 times as good.

 

[Nightfall]

Interesting.
I never believed this thread would go so far...

The following material is open to my players:

1. Core Books

2. 5 Player's Guide books designed specifically for Scarred Lands.

3. I also hand out stuff from a large set of campaign specific books.

There was a thread about Scarred Lands prestige classes some time ago, and the number of PrC's was rather large. So, why give other stuff to players that they won't see anyone else using inside the game world? Where do they pick up these new and wonderful skills / feats / PrC abilities? There's a host of supplementary material to use, so I see no reason to expand the horizon to the unknown.

Tel,

That would be me since I did up that list. Now I haven't done the feats but with access to almost VIRTUALLY ever SL book ever printed until this week/next week, I'm FLOORED that the player can't find a way to enjoy his character without going outside core or what's available in the current SL stuff. Now if he's like "I wanna be a social skillz whuroe!" seems to me you have far greater issues. Hang tough, say no a lot. And just deal.

Also ignore reap. He's...well I'm not saying it but he is.

 

[Telperion]

You know, it's not really true that if 10 pages of world building is good, then 100 pages of world building is 10 times as good.

True, but the level of detail that has been put into those books allows me to better understand the consequences and effects that decisions have in the long run. A gazetteer is very nice for introductions, but it still doesn't give all the necessary information. Especially if said information is written from the viewpoint of a biased person. The DM material on the hand covers more than one interpretation of "truth" that is given in the gazetteer.

 

[RithTheAwakener]

Two things work well for our group when this happens.
1) DM flat out says No. Always does the trick.
2) Make PrC's have extra requirements, IE its necessary to be in 'this guild' or one has to be TRAINED by another in the PrC, and judging by how not many here know what the PrC is, make it very very rare that someone *could* actually train them, let alone have incentive to.

Rith

 

[Buttercup]

Rith, your second point is pretty much my method too. A PC should have to work to qualify for a Prestige Class. They represent membership in elite organizations, which are most likely going to ask for a pretty difficult demonstration of worth on the part of the PC. I would turn the PC's desire to gain entry into a part of the plot.

Let's say the Snorri the Dwarven Fighter wants to start taking levels in the Stone Axe Berzerker prestige class. He would have to find the nearest guild house of said Stone Axe Berzerkers and petition for entry. The guild master would ask Snorri to bring him written guarantees of his honor and valor from three dwarven clan leaders. When that was done, Snorri would be asked to find a fabled artifact. Finally, Snorri would be required to undergo "The Gauntlet", which would consist of unarmed combat with champions from the three branches of the guild. If Snorri succeeded at all this, he would become an initiate of the Stone Axe Berzerkers in a secret ceremony, and would be given his stone Axe pendant along with his first level in the PrC.

But all this would only be true if the Stone Axe Berzerkers were an organization in my world.

 

[Buttercup]

Telperion, I just want to say that I would love to play in your game, and I don't even particularly like the Scarred Lands. You just sound like such a good DM, that I'd happily be your player.

 

[Dirigible]

...are playing a LARP. The fact that LARP is roleplaying doesn't mean that non-LARP is not roleplaying...

Maybe some kind of Venn diagram would help, H-dog?