I Hate Bards

[Felon]

Iconik, I hope you don't buy any of this ridiculous hostility directed towards your bard player. "Hate the player, not the bard" is a pretty lame perspective. Trying to use the rules to gain a tactical advantage hardly makes someone a "dick".

Someone on the team was in a rather large jam, and when that happens, people who give a crap try to figure out what they can do about it. They get excited. He was trying to improvise with the tools he had at hand. He used them incorrectly, but nobody here can tell you he was actively cheating. That's your call.

 

[Iconik]

Nah. He was never TRYING to cheat. Though, after he used the skill he went to great lengths to defend his position.

There's been a lot of crap in this thread putting words in my mouth. I've had to clear that up a couple times.

Human Target: Ever GM'd? Sometimes it's just easier to allow it and move on. Especially when a total TPK probably isn't going to happen. Allow it and resolve it after the session. Which is exactly what we've been doing. I wasn't whining. I was trying to clear up the rules behind it so when it happens again we'll know exactly how to handle it.

Boy, lots of people on this board like to put words in your mouth. Hah.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think the hang up falls on the actual power itself. Victim of the feywild targets one creature. In this case the purple worm who was swallowing a creature.

On a hit, one or two allies within 5 squares of the worm teleport to a square adjacent to the worm, thus ending any restraining effects by definition of the teleport rules.

Only the user of the power has to see the destination square but not the origin, only the target. The only question is does the swallowed creature somehow now become the target of the power at this time or is it an sorta aftereffect of the hit on the worm?

Victim of the Feywild

Hit: 1d8 + Charisma modifier force damage, and you can teleport one or two allies within 5 squares of the target each to different squares adjacent to the target.

OK, here's the lowdown. Obviously the power can target the worm, which is what it does. THEN it has an effect on a hit that teleports 2 allies. Now, the allies are NOT targets of the POWER, but they are being teleported and thus the teleport rules need to be applied. Teleport states that the user of the teleport must have LoS to the destination. RC page214 tells us nothing about an LoS or LoE needed to whoever is being teleported.

In this situation we're USUALLY talking about the target of a power, and thus restrictions on LoS and/or LoE will be provided there, but here we are talking about the target of an EFFECT. The question thus is can an effect affect a creature which is not within either LoS or LoE? The general rules for powers would need to be consulted for this to be determined.

There are a few different ways to argue this. First we could ask if this is really some sort of AoE. It isn't couched in the standard terms of an AoE though, it simply says "2 allies within 5 squares." The general rules for powers really never spell out one way or another restrictions on 'non-targets' that are effected. However we can ask some reasonability questions. For instance if the Bard can teleport his swallowed ally then what stops a splash effect that doesn't require a hit (say a power that says "creatures within 2 squares of the target take X damage") from taking damage even if they are on the other side of blocking terrain (IE out of LoE)? NOTHING would, in fact this interpretation would mean all such effects work regardless of ANY such consideration. Personally I don't find this reasonable and I would consider this use of the power not to pass a smell test.

Frankly I think that even though 'other affected creatures' aren't ever specifically called out in the general rules related to LoS and LoE requirements that the common and reasonable interpretation is that in these situations they are treated in a fashion analogous to a specified target. That is walls (or the guts of a purple worm) block LoE and therefor prevent such effects from working.

In a very narrow technical sense you can claim to be correct, there is no rule spelled out that actively prevents what the Bard did from working. It is however almost certainly a contravention of RAI and I'd call it a bit of an example of player rules lawyering (although not a particularly egregious one). It was a clever ploy and I might even give you the benefit of the doubt on it at the table, but next week when you tried to use the same sort of rules interpretation to damage some enemy behind a wall with a splash effect I'd certainly hope you'd keep your desire for rules consistency in your back pocket.

 

[The Human Target]

Nah. He was never TRYING to cheat. Though, after he used the skill he went to great lengths to defend his position.

There's been a lot of crap in this thread putting words in my mouth. I've had to clear that up a couple times.

Human Target: Ever GM'd? Sometimes it's just easier to allow it and move on. Especially when a total TPK probably isn't going to happen. Allow it and resolve it after the session. Which is exactly what we've been doing. I wasn't whining. I was trying to clear up the rules behind it so when it happens again we'll know exactly how to handle it.

Boy, lots of people on this board like to put words in your mouth. Hah.

Sadly, all the time.

 

[Ryujin]

I think the hang up falls on the actual power itself. Victim of the feywild targets one creature. In this case the purple worm who was swallowing a creature.

On a hit, one or two allies within 5 squares of the worm teleport to a square adjacent to the worm, thus ending any restraining effects by definition of the teleport rules.

Only the user of the power has to see the destination square but not the origin, only the target. The only question is does the swallowed creature somehow now become the target of the power at this time or is it an sorta aftereffect of the hit on the worm?

To effect the swallowed character, the Bard needs line of sight and line of effect to that character. To teleport him somewhere, he needs line of sight to the destination.

 

[Iconik]

Sadly, all the time.

Then you know from where I'm coming from! Hahaha. Although...I did have some fun with me allowing it a little later by going completely over the top and acting like I was violently crying when I rolled my dice. We all had a good laugh.

 

[I'm A Banana]

The only question is does the swallowed creature somehow now become the target of the power at this time or is it an sorta aftereffect of the hit on the worm?

I'd rule that the swallowed creature doesn't become the target, and can't be teleported, because of this:

no creature has line of sight or line of effect to the swallowed target

Usually, without a line of effect, a creature cannot be...er...affected by something. The Bard can't affect the swallowed creature with anything. The Worm really can't, either (no biting a swallowed creature!), but your allies can't help you when you're swallowed. You can't target them with anything. They're *gone*.

In order to get them back, you need to tear up the worm (ideally, with their help from the inside).

But this is no reason to hate bards. This is a reason to hate targeting rules. Or poorly worded additional effects from powers. Not the class's fault.

Though if the bard really wanted to ruin the day of a DM with a purple worm, a Virtue of Cunning or any ability that moves your allies (of which 4e bards have quite a bit) would break any hold the purple worm had in the first place, making the swallow all the tougher. The worm needs at least 2 rounds to swallow the critter, and any push, pull, slide, or teleport will handily remove them from the critter's jaws before the swallow.

 

[Azlith]

Oh, if its a teleport, he's totally wrong then. To teleport someone, you have to be able to see their origin and destination. Since he didn't have line of sight, no teleport.

Technically, Teleportation only needs line of sight to the destination. And since the power does not state "one or two allies you can see within 5 squares...", it should work fine, especially since the secondary effect 'originates' from the purple worm itself. Also, after looking it up, creatures do not block line of effect. Only blocking terrain blocks line of effect. And just because a creature has full cover or is invisible does not mean it is untargetable; it has to be hidden for that.

So, you have line of effect to the PC, know where it is, and it is within 5 squares of the original target of the power: you can teleport it to a square you can see adjacent to the original target.

 

[TarionzCousin]

Boy, lots of people on this board like to put words in your mouth. Hah.

You say that like it's a bad thing.


The one thing nobody has mentioned so far is that when the bard hit the purple worm he could have teleported it. What if the DM let that happen and left the swallowed character behind? Would that be:

A. Cool;
B. A poor interpretation of the rules; or
C. Both.

 

[malraux]

Technically, Teleportation only needs line of sight to the destination. And since the power does not state "one or two allies you can see within 5 squares...", it should work fine, especially since the secondary effect 'originates' from the purple worm itself. Also, after looking it up, creatures do not block line of effect. Only blocking terrain blocks line of effect. And just because a creature has full cover or is invisible does not mean it is untargetable; it has to be hidden for that.

So, you have line of effect to the PC, know where it is, and it is within 5 squares of the original target of the power: you can teleport it to a square you can see adjacent to the original target.

I could have sworn that they clarified that for a teleport of another creature to work, you had to see the origin and the destination, but I can find no support for that anyway, so I'll remove that claim.

That said, you still don't have line of effect to the swallowed creature. Sure, the general rule is that creatures don't block line of effect, but the purple worm is different and specifically says that swallowed creatures are blocked from having line of effect.