"I hate math"

[Ourph]

In this regard Warhammer is a non-solution. The system just breaks at high power levels, it doesn't make it easier. Just as well you could play 3E below, say, level 10.

I'm not sure what you mean by "breaks". We're talking about a system requiring lots of mathematical contortions during play. If that's what you mean by "breaks" then all I can say is that my experience seems to differ from yours. I've never had a problem with extensive math in Warhammer, and I've run numerous campaigns where the characters have gone through 12 or more careers (the highest "level" character I ever ran for was a Lv4 Wizard/Lv4 Elementalist/Lv2 Illusionist + 2-3 other basic careers).

This situation from a 3e game I ran comes to mind in terms of the complexity that made me eschew DMing the game.

A Rogue with bracers of armor +3, Dex 18, ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +2, the Dodge and Mobility feats and fighting defensively. The Rogue moves through the threatened squares of a wraith and an invisible fighter wielding a longsword; ends his movement next to a Cleric holding an inflict light wounds spell in his hand and tries to initiate a grapple. The rogue has declared his Dodge vs. the Cleric.

What is his AC vs. each opponent for the AoOs he provokes?

Figuring this sort of thing out on the fly turns the game from "fun" into "work" for me. YMMV.

 

[jmucchiello]

More options, more actions, more dice, more modifiers...

Here's a great example from Origins: A fighter/rogue with Expert Tactician, 4d6 sneak attack, a holy weapon, and Greater Invisibility, (Mass) Haste, and had drunk a potion of Bull's Strength. Wielding a keen falchion with improved crit. Now, her bonuses to hit were pre-calc'd with bull's str, but not the +1 from haste (from party), or the +2 from fighting invis, or the +2 if she could get flanking. The attack routine could be anywhere from one - four depending upon movement, haste, and expert tactician. If she hit, she has a 45% chance of threatening. For each hit, she deals 2d4+8 damage per swing +4d6 sneak +2d6 holy (what multiplies)? At the end of this little routine, the cleric reminded them that they just cast prayer for another +1 to hit and damage to each roll. (Rolling to hit required up to 8 rolls with up to six modifiers, and damage required rolling and adding up 8 dice per attack times 4 attacks + with up to seven modifiers per attack).

How is that complex? With haste in effect you add one to to hit, with invis you add another +2. If you call adding 1 or 2 to something complex, I have to assume you aren't up to 1st grade level mathematics. I find that hard to believe.

As do I. I had every statistic for every villian in the module in a six tab spreadsheet. I was able track and sort initiatives, and roll all "to hit" and damages for each attack routine with one click. It still took over an hour to run one encounter with six players and 9 villians. Should it be this hard?

You ran a combat with 15 combatants in an hour? Blessed be. Good for you. In HERO, that same combat would have taken 5 hours. In GURPS, perhaps 3 hours. In out large gaming group a 15 person combat could take the whole 4 hour session. What are you complaining about?

Should you HAVE to count on the players to spend from one to four hours pre-calc'ing all these modifiers? Can you really account for every modifier quickly and easily without some kind of computer help?

Absolutely. Every player in my game has a character sheet with everything pre-calced including standard spells normally cast on them. Two of them have a full separate sheet for haste. When the sorcerer hastes the party (3.5e), they both flip over their sheet to use the hasted version. Even the power attackers have a few standard PA levels written on the sheet for ease of reference. If the DM has to spend time statting out encounters, the least the players can do is be ready for common occurances in play.

I perceive a very important conclusion from the above. If you're going to add a modifier, it needs to stick. Period. Stacking, while it works on paper to help place necessary ceilings to the high level game, perhaps causes too much confusion. Tactically, the way the game is designed, it may become overly cumbersome at higher levels to make distinctions between when certain modifiers should and shouldn't apply throughout an action.

No, it just requires a character sheet with all the types of modifiers listed. The problem comes in when you have some wacky third party thing that adds a new modifier type. The game would be simpler if there were only so many modifiers. Each of them would get a space on the character sheet. The short description of spells would always include the modifer type for ease of reference.

My experience has been very different. My Excel spreadsheet for this adventure had over 369 lines of statistics and modifiers to keep track of for four encounters.

I've never needed a spreadsheet to track a combat. But I'll admit, I have a "head for math" so I'm not the perfect counterexample. All I'm saying is your perceived problem is not universal.

OTOH, maybe you shouldn't play high level D&D if it gives you such a problem. You will find that in most systems as the players get tougher, the game becomes more complex. Maybe you need a world with no probability enhancers. Eliminate all spells that grant bonuses to anything. Spells do damage, transform, create illusions, bend will, or summon stuff and that's it. No abjurations unless they are absolute. No sacred bonus to attack bonus. Just fireballs, charms, images, polymorphs (baleful only), etc. Since there's not bull's strength, there's not belt of giant strength. No cloaks of protection, no bracers of armor, none of that stuff. Could make for an interesting world feel. It's not D&D. But it could be interesting. I may try it myself.....

 

[ashockney]

I've run numerous campaigns where the characters have gone through 12 or more careers (the highest "level" character I ever ran for was a Lv4 Wizard/Lv4 Elementalist/Lv2 Illusionist + 2-3 other basic careers).

This is another topic worth looking at. Although there are some class combinations that work at higher levels of D&D, not all classes are built equally. It is very difficult to keep pace with a 16th level cleric, with any other class combination of three or more careers. It would be cool to be able to play a Rgr/Clr/Wiz and not feel inadequate.

 

[Ourph]

This is another topic worth looking at. Although there are some class combinations that work at higher levels of D&D, not all classes are built equally. It is very difficult to keep pace with a 16th level cleric, with any other class combination of three or more careers. It would be cool to be able to play a Rgr/Clr/Wiz and not feel inadequate.

Just to be clear, I was speaking about a Warhammer character in my post, not a D&D character. The "Lv4 Wizard/Lv4 Elementalist/Lv2 Illusionist + 2-3 other basic careers" is not in any way equivalent to a multiclass character in 3e D&D. 4th level is the highest level you can reach as a spellcaster in Warhammer, and ONLY spellcasting careers even have levels, everybody else just moves on to a new career once they complete their previous one in order to advance.

 

[Nifft]

One of the nice things about 3rd Edition (and 3.5e, mostly), is that you can pre-calculate stuff, and it mostly doesn't vary with critter type. (There are exceptions, of course.) Bonuses have finite types, so you could in theory make a character sheet that allows you to do easy bonus accounting.

An annoying trend I've noticed is the creation of feats which grant special bonuses in special situations, and the creation of new bonus types ("sacred" vs. "divine" vs. "profane" vs. blah blah). IMHO, these are both bad trends, because they add complication without adding complexity. ("Complication" is answered with rote memorization, while "complexity" requires thought -- there are often multiple only partially satisfactory solutions to a complex problem, while a complicated problem has a single, albeit obfuscated, solution.)

The answer here IMHO is to:
1) Limit the number of bonus types to a fixed list.
2) Make nice character sheets that actually have a place for everything (and labels!), and room to the side for temporary bonuses. Automated computer sheets might help here, but a well-designed paper sheet would be wonderful.

As a DM, I pre-calculate what effects I expect to place on certain critters, and keep separate listings for their AC, Saves & Attacks under different conditions. Players should be able to do the same thing, especially since they can co-operatively plan their spells & strategy.

-- N

 

[ashockney]

How is that complex? With haste in effect you add one to to hit, with invis you add another +2. If you call adding 1 or 2 to something complex, I have to assume you aren't up to 1st grade level mathematics. I find that hard to believe.

I think it's more to the point of how many "possible" variables there are out there at high level. I agree, adding one or two isn't complex. Keeping track of the tens, hundreds of modifiers that "may" apply is another subject. I think it would be up to at least 3rd or 4th grade!

Absolutely. Every player in my game has a character sheet with everything pre-calced including standard spells normally cast on them. Two of them have a full separate sheet for haste. When the sorcerer hastes the party (3.5e), they both flip over their sheet to use the hasted version. Even the power attackers have a few standard PA levels written on the sheet for ease of reference. If the DM has to spend time statting out encounters, the least the players can do is be ready for common occurances in play.

A big committment to ask of players. But too big? Perhaps not. I'd definitely like to hear from others on the subject. By the time you're 12th level plus, you should have more than a year invested in the character, so it may seem more worthwhile to spend time building out your character. Your point about your player's sheets presents an interesting "opportunity" for an aspiring d20 publisher. "High level character sheet" organizers (maybe even filling in a spreadsheet, that prints each "buff" version for you...

No, it just requires a character sheet with all the types of modifiers listed. The problem comes in when you have some wacky third party thing that adds a new modifier type. The game would be simpler if there were only so many modifiers. Each of them would get a space on the character sheet. The short description of spells would always include the modifer type for ease of reference.
I've never needed a spreadsheet to track a combat. But I'll admit, I have a "head for math" so I'm not the perfect counterexample. All I'm saying is your perceived problem is not universal......

Point taken on being good at math. One of the reasons I'd like to hear from others. Again, for anyone aspiring to build the "ULTIMATE" high level character sheet, how many bonuses are there?

To Hit/Damage: BAB, Competence, Ability, Ability Enhancement, Ability Inherent, Feat (competence), Weapon Enhancement, Luck, Size, Morale, Haste, Sacred, Tactical, (possible secondary Ability, Ability Enhancement, and Ability Inherent for prestige classes), Insight, and Epic

For armor class: Class, Ability, Ability Enhancement, Ability Inherent, Feat (competence), Natural, Natural Enhancement, Armor, Armor Enhancement, Deflection, Shield, Shield Enhancement, Luck, Size, Morale, Haste, Sacred, Tactical, (possible secondary Ability, Ability Enhancement, and Ability Inherent for monk/prestige classes), Insight, and Epic

For saving throws: Base Saving Throw Bonus, Resistance, Ability, Ability Enhancement, Ability Inherent, Feat (competence), Luck, Size, Morale, Haste, Sacred, Tactical, (possible secondary Ability, Ability Enhancement, and Ability Inherent for paladin/prestige classes), Insight, and Epic

In this, I'm referring to Tactical as anything from the PH "Combat" rules such as flanking, concealment, stunning, etc.

OTOH, maybe you shouldn't play high level D&D if it gives you such a problem. You will find that in most systems as the players get tougher, the game becomes more complex.

On the contrary, I thoroughly enjoy high level Dungeons and Dragons, and only hope to make it even better! I have run two 3rd Edition campaigns to 20th level, and one to 32nd! Our current campaign is on hiatus at around 12th level.

 

[Storminator]

The problem comes from doing a 14th level one shot adventure with (more or less) random people.

In a campaign, players grow into their PCs, and know them pretty well by 14th level. And the DM knows those PCs pretty well too. Everyone has fairly regular combos they put together, and the bugs get worked out.

In a one shot, no one knows their own PC, let alone what everyone else has, and every attack is foriegn territory. The DM doesn't get his usual player support, and everything becomes difficult to track. Just when you get the hang of things, the session is over.

PS

 

[ashockney]

The problem comes from doing a 14th level one shot adventure with (more or less) random people.

In a campaign, players grow into their PCs, and know them pretty well by 14th level. And the DM knows those PCs pretty well too. Everyone has fairly regular combos they put together, and the bugs get worked out.

In a one shot, no one knows their own PC, let alone what everyone else has, and every attack is foriegn territory. The DM doesn't get his usual player support, and everything becomes difficult to track. Just when you get the hang of things, the session is over.

PS

Storminator, excellent points. I agree with you completely, and these were clearly a part of the challenge.

I'll repeat my earlier question, however, and ask does a great rpg HAVE to be so complex at high level? Or, is it possible to make it a GREAT rpg, and still be simple enough to grasp quickly at higher levels. Think out of the box on this one...

How high, how often have you gone? Have you run into any pitfalls?

 

[Aaron L]

As a person who is horrible with math and has attention deficit disorder besides, I have no problems adding groups of single digit numbers on the fly.
I have played characters up to 24th level (my ranger 18/barbarian 1/border guard 5) with no problems and no lessing of my enjoyment. My 18th level bladesinger (fighter 4/wizard 2/bladesinger 10/eldritch knight 2) has an armor class that can vary by up to 10 points from round to round as I wish, and it doesn't slow me down taking a number from armor class and adding it to hit instead.

If I have common situational modifiers (smite, rage, etc.) I precalculate them and have them on my sheet. And all the bonus types? here's a bit of advice: Ignore the word and add the number. I mean, look to make sure you aren't adding the same types of bonuses, but other than that just forget the word is there and add the +5 to the +1 to the +3.

Seriously, spreadsheets? C'mon, that's a joke, right?

 

[Chaldfont]

One of the problems might be that it was a con game. I've run a few games with pre-generated high-level PCs and seen this each time. Both the players and the DM aren't used to the details of the characters. If you have been playing or DMing a PC from 1st level up through 12th, you know all of that PCs capabilities. You probably have extensive notes about his favorite tactics and therefore all his bonuses. If you a playing a 12th level character just handed to you, it's quite a bit harder. You need to become familiar with that character's abilities--especially if whoever created the character built in a lot of complicated feat/skill/item combinations.

A good example of this is a PC in my weekly game. He's an 11th level ranger. He is frequently the subject of bull's strength, barkskin, and enlarge person. We have his attack bonuses and damages written on index cards for each of the permutations of the above effects. That way he can just switch to the card.

D20 is definitely more work than previous D&D incarnations, but you are rewarded with so many more options. Give me feats, easy multiclassing, and the current combat rules any day.