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I Have A Problem With 3E

Multi-classing - Our group uses no PrC at all. Multi-classing is allowed but you need to have some story-driven basis for it, not just that you want the skills for your toon.

Meta-Magic. - Hasn't been a big problem since we have rarely taken meta-magic feats and we usually end up stopping at 9th level or so.

Synergy - This can be solved by staying with mainly the core books only. We use the PHB and PHBII for characters. Nothing else

Two-handed Weapons - Now this is a sore spot for me because I have seen two-handed swords dominate the game. They just have too good a combination of critical hit range, damage and bonuses. You can balance it out by rewritting the weapons some. I have all large weapons crit on 20 only, do the same 2-12 damage but they get a -2 initiative bonus as heavy weapons take longer to swing.

Point Buy - Takes the risk and excitement out of it. Reroll if character is truely sucky.

Magic-Item Creation - Our DM solves this by keeping us so busy that we rarely have time to stay in one place and create stuff.

-KenSeg
gaming since 1978
 

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redrobedwizard: "Oh, you can still make judgment calls, but the way 3e is set up, you don't have to make judgment calls for things like Power Attack or Tumble. Less judgment calls *required* is a good thing. Feel free to make your own calls, just don't force them all on newbie DMs."

I'm not sure I'm following you here. Your saying in 3E, if a person wants to tumble past an opponent, you wouldn't role tumble, but might role something else? Or if someone wanted to climbe a rope during combat, you wouldn't nec. role climb? By far the worst skill is bluff and intimidate. Both those seem to replace good role play with a dice role. At least they seem to get abused in that way.
 

der_kluge said:
Life force is measured by hit points and constitution. XP is not a measure of that. XP is in fact a measure of EXPERIENCE. Hence the name. Reducing XP takes away EXPERIENCE. Period. Stop rationalizing it.

XP is also a metagame construction. It is not modeled like learning. Practicing your skills does not help your XP. Further, your skill in, say, craft(alchemy) depends more on how many orcs you beat up last session than how many items you make. Since you gain no capabilities until you gain a level and can't lose a level, saying that you are "unlearning" things is precisely, rationalizing things.

If you want to find a way to hate something, it's easy to rationalize it. But when you have to rationalize it either way, I think it makes more sense to come down on the side of the rationalization that makes less work for the players of the game.
 


WayneLigon said:
They won't be casting them at that level if you don't let them find a rod or buy one. If you've got 5th level mages buying 14,000gp Maximize rods, then you have a bigger problem than just metamagic feats.

I'd personally say that the rod just confers the ability to use the feat, so the spell slot does change.
Exactly.
If these items are a problem then the DM isn't keeping the cost in mind when he tosses them out there.

I'm far from being a strict "assign gear to match the DMG" guy. I give out whatever works for the game at the time. But you can't have it both ways and give them out cheaply then complain about the power.

If you ARE costing them, then you won't find that they provide any more advantage than other items for the same ballpark costs.

(If you are calling them "free" you missed to point from the start)
 

this turned out to be longer than I'd expected. Um... sorry?


1.) Multiclassing

This issue has never been a problem for me simply because I have excellent players. If they can't think of in in-game, roleplaying reason to multiclass, they don't do it. That said, I wish there were some additional prerequisites for multiclassing built into the system. Perhaps a time component (becoming a wizard takes 6 years of study at a formal academy, for example), or a training component (to multiclass into fighter you must have spent at least 3 consecutive weeks traveling in armor, training with weapons, etc.) Even if these were variants, it would be nice to have some kind of baseline "assumed standard"


2.) Free Metamagic.

I completely agree. I do not ever hand out metamagic rods, or allow their purchase. I have a warmage in one campaign as the sole arcane caster so I am not going to mess around with his sudden metamagic. He needs all the help he can get. However, feats like Divine Metamagic are also not used.


3.) Synergy:

I can see this as a problem when the DM is not the one making the investment into books/materials and one or more of the players are always "one step ahead." But this is going to be true no matter what you play. It's not limited to D&D, or even to RPG's. The DM really needs to be comfortable making judgments about these things.


4.) 2H Weapons and
7.) Expertise/Power Attack

Expertise is never a problem for me. I've kept the 3.0 version of Power Attack because the 2H version in 3.5 causes me mental stress when designing encounters. I admit that I had 3 frontline fighters in one of my campaigns, one with a greataxe, one with a 2H sword, and one with a spiked chain. ALL of them ended up with animated shields. That tells me something about either: a) the skewed benefit of 2H fighting in general or b) that animated shields are too good for their cost. I'm going with the latter.


5.) Balancing Encounters...Day/Week

I do not have any issues with the way encounters work, but that comes from knowing my groups. I do have an issue with any ability, item, or function that is invoked as a "weekly" event. Paladins' cure disease, the craft/profession rules, etc. I hate these figures because I don't have a standard 7-day week. Just keep one unit of time (hours) and say abilities function once every x hours.


6.) Buffs.

Yup, it's a problem which comes from 2 sources: 1) the over-dependence of EVERYTHING on the 6 core stats, and 2) the mining of different types of bonuses from multiple sources. Insight Bonus? Luck Bonus? Sacred Bonus? Enhancement Bonus? I don't have a working solution to either problem but I have some thoughts:

1: Raise the level on buffing spells and standardize the way "mass" versions of buffing work. I think if Bull's Strength were both higher level (3rd maybe?) and variable (+2, +4, +6 dependent on caster level) and if all related items were re-priced appropriately, this would go a long way to solving the stats problem.

2: remove sacreds, profanes, lucks, and untyped modifiers that come from magic. If you cast a spell that gives you a +2 to hit and damage, that's not going to stack with any other spell that gives you a + to hit or damage.

3: limit the number of buffs a character can have active in the same manner that item slots on the body are limited.



8.) Point-Buy.

Love it or hate it, there is something to be said for keeping everybody within the same power curve. Stats are HUGE. They factor into absolutely everything a character does. In one of my campaigns I allowed "4d6 drop the lowest." I asked for everyone's stats and guess what the equivalent point-buy would have been? 51. Yes, a 51-point-buy. From a player's perspective that might be thrilling. From a DM's perspective this bites, big time. You can't use anything out-of-the-box and expect to challenge them. skill DC's always seem too low. You're increasing monster stats to keep the challenge up and then feeling crappy when something you thought was fair turns out to be unbeatable.

In earlier editions, stats didn't matter so much. rolling by default wasn't going to cause any problems. In 3rd edition, you need to be mindful about how vital they are to every action a character takes.


9.) Rerolls.

It's honestly never come up, so I've got nothing so say.


10.) Magic Item Creation.

I think this needs a complete overhaul for MANY reasons. None of my PC's take them. The XP hit is just too severe and skewed against the crafter, from their POV. There is no other mechanic that penalizes other character classes in a similar fashion. I see NPC statblocks where the developers were apparently whacked with a touch of idiocy, because they are loaded up on item creation feats and then are not given appropriate gear to utilize those feat choices. There are too many redundancies in item abilities (not once have I ever seen Forge Ring or Craft Rod even considered)



Some others, from my point-of view:

11.) There are rules that simply break suspension-of-disbelief while narrating. I detest these. I know this is like the "common sense" argument that everyone likes to quip about, but seriously... I cannot think of any realistic way to describe the Swallow Whole process. I fail to be able to describe what "alignment-based-damage" is like. (you take 6 points of chaotic damage. Yup, OK.)


12.) NPC classes.

I cannot state my dislike in strong enough terms. If you want a crappy fighter, build a crappy fighter. If you want a crappy spellcaster, it's easy enough to make one using the base classes. The only NPC class of any worth is the expert. You can model an aristocrat with this. You can model a commoner with this. You can model a craftsman, beekeeper, or blue-haired church lady with this. Ditch the rest, make expert more robust and have that be the default NPC.



And I'm done.
 

If people are annoyed by point buy, I point out the fact that 75% of ALL D&D, past, present and future, suffer and tended to die way quicker than they should have all because of "best of worst" scores. Don't believe me? I have substative proof with my friend Mark. We've gamed since 86, and have done so with many editions. 75% of his character bit it in combat and/or bad rolls.

That's proof enough to me that Point buy has something going for it.
 

Nightfall said:
If people are annoyed by point buy, I point out the fact that 75% of ALL D&D, past, present and future, suffer and tended to die way quicker than they should have all because of "best of worst" scores. Don't believe me? I have substative proof with my friend Mark. We've gamed since 86, and have done so with many editions. 75% of his character bit it in combat and/or bad rolls.

That's proof enough to me that Point buy has something going for it.

That's substantive proof?

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
[/Inigo Montoya] ;)
 

airwalkrr said:
I1. Multiclassing
AD&D was too strict. 3rd edition is too permissive. In AD&D you couldn't change professions unless you were human; that was a problem. In 3rd edition you can't help but change professions many times, including certain prestigious professions; this is also a problem.
Potential Solution: There needs to be a significant drawback to multiclassing while keeping it viable. Currently, the only drawback (XP penalty) is easily circumvented. Even when it isn't avoided, XP loss isn't fun.

Multiclassing largely sucks compared to how it was THE way to play in 1st/2nd edition. Dipping keeps non-casters on par with casters, I know, blasphemy to whining grognards everywhere, but its true. This is design. The MC rules are fine as is. What isnt fine is the odd prestige class, but thats dealt with on a case by case basis.

2. Free Metamagic
Metamagic as an idea is great. But there is a reason the designers gave it an opportunity cost in the form of a higher level spell slot. Wizards were not meant to maximize fireballs at 5th level and clerics weren't meant to chain greater magic weapon at 7th level. The current trend of metamagic rods, sudden metamagic feats, and other "free" metamagic effects gives spellcasters too much power.
Potential Solution: I think this aspect just needs to be removed from the game. Metamagic is fine. "Free" metamagic is not.

The metamagic rules blow right now. Its almost never worth the spell slot trade-off. AE did it right by introducing the concept of ladening spells (spending double the slots for the desired effect). I'd recommend those.

3. Synergy
I'm not talking about synergy bonuses from skills. I am talking about unintended consequences of mixing and matching sourcebooks. For example, if a dread necromancer (Heroes of Horror) takes the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat (Libris Mortis), he gets unlimited healing. Taken separately, neither of these abilities is overpowered. Taken together, they have synergy that is far greater than the power of their individual components, likely an oversight because the books had different development teams.
Potential Solution: Allow each player access to one sourcebook ONLY outside of the three core rulebooks. This prevents most forms of synergy. Of course it reduces player options so it is not an ideal solution.

If the game was balanced around every possible combination, every feat and spell would be considered overpowered. Skill focus is now broken due to the Emmisary of Barchiel and what not. SKILL FOCUS. Think about that. Limit powerful combos as the need arises. Just be aware that fighters SHOULD be ruling combat. Its all they do.

4. Two-Handed Weapons
Because of the double bonus from Power Attack, floaty shields, and more beneficial Strength modifier, two-handed weapon wielders have become the staple of melee combat. Forgive me, but this is trite. Two-weapon fighters and sword-and-board style have become comparatively worthless relics in the game.
Potential Solution: (and this is vague) The game needs to support multiple fighting styles by providing viable options for each that don't heavily overshadow the others. Player's Handbook 2 goes a long way towards rectifying this problem, but I don't know if it goes far enough.

It helps fighters. Nothing wrong there except the other options arent as good as two hander and floaty shield. Let shield users actually wearing their shields block incoming attacks with an opposed attack roll. Fighters should be combat gods. Nothing should outdamage or out tank them until they get non-combat utility on par with scrying, contact other planes, teleport etc. Since this isnt happening this edition, fighters need to be embarassing casters in terms of combat effectiveness.

5. Balancing Per Encounter Instead of Per Day
This is a horrible idea because it propagates the notion that the world conforms itself to the power level of the player characters. Some encounters are meant to be tougher, and those encounters require greater resources. Others are meant to be more menial and require fewer resources. Properly gauging the difficulty of an encounter and balancing your resources is part of the strategy of D&D. Leave "per encounter" balancing in MMORPGs and keep D&D a strategic game, like it was meant to be. Or at least publish two versions.
Potential Solution: (another vague one) Characters should not be able to use their most powerful abilities without limit.

Decent idea, this problem isnt new to 3rd edition. You always needed a ton of encounters to prevent the mage and cleric from dumping meteor swarm, finger of death, creeping doom etc every meaningful encounter. One encounter per day works if you dont have casters.

6. Neverending Buffs
Yet another thing that removes an element of strategy from the game. Clerics are particularly fond of these. Spells like magic vestment, greater magic weapon, and heroes' feast are virtual must-haves for clerics because they last practically all day, especially with extend spell. "Forget situational spells. Just memorize the ones that keep you perpetually powered-up!" That's bland.
Potential Solution: Reduce durations of spells like this, or add costly material or XP costs to reduce their frequency of use.

Ugh. you actually LIKE tracking durations? These are the only ones I dont mind, because they are fire and forget.

7. Combat Expertise and Power Attack
These kinds of feats make the game a bit too complicated because of the constant calculation required. A 10th-level fighter with Power Attack has 11 attack options representing the various penalties he can take. A 10th-level fighter with Power Attack AND Combat Expertise has 66 attack options! And he is expected to quickly decide which course of action is best?
Potential Solution: Simplify these kinds of feats with a flat penalty and flat bonus. The decision for the player then becomes merely to use it or not.

My players are too dumb for simple math, for one of the classes with the fewest options out there. Sorry, I thoroughly disagree.

8. Point Buy
As if we needed more excuses for players to focus on character creation as opposed to actually playing the game. The world isn't that fair. I don't know why we would expect our characters to be "equal" either (as if that ideal were even possible). Besides, it ruins the excitement of rolling up a really nice set of scores.
Potential Solution: Roll ability scores.

Rolling anything duri9ng character creation is a bad idea. HP, stats, etc should all be fixed. Or we could do it your way, and roll to see if your saves, skill points, spells/day, BAB increase. I mean, why should people want a fair shake. Oh, because its a game, thats why.

9. Rerolls
Various class abilities that allow rerolls greatly reduce the amount of chance in the game. You aren't likely to roll very many 1s during a game session, and if you have one or two reroll abilities (luck domain, luck blade, fatespinner, etc.) you don't need to worry about them. As long as your character is powerfully built, you will almost never need to worry about pesky automatic failures. Additionally, these abilities are greater still in the hands of NPCs, who only usually need them for one battle.
Potential Solution: Don't allow rerolls to change the result of automatic successes or failures.

Not that common. I like re-rolls personally.

10. Magic Item Creation
It costs XP to make magic items. So my character unlearns things for succeeding at a task. How on earth does that make sense?
Potential Solution: Just drop the XP cost for magic item creation. It already costs your character a feat. Or make the creation of magic items difficult by requiring rare components that must be quested for.
[/quote]

Magic items are finally out of tightwad DM's control. Thank god for small favors, because the game is actually admitting its balanced around certain expectations. No, and double no.
 
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Psion,

Well if I see a rock fall on someone and kill them, I believe I'm right in assuming it's a bad thing, right?

I'm just saying dice rolling doesn't always work out the way people want or expect.
 

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