I have a real problem with Tumble

[benshearon]

Hi everyone

At our game a couple of nights ago I noticed that I have a real problem with Tumble as written in the SRD. It seems ridiculous that a skill check against a standard DC (15) allows one to slip past anybody, be they a peasant with a stick or a level 18 swashbuckler with a magic rapier.

The rest of Tumble I don't object to, it's just the avoiding attacks of opportunity bit.

I suggested the following to our DM, and he pointed me in the direction of this board (the assumption being that if it passed muster under your keen insightful gaze, maybe we could adopt it as a house rule).

Be nice, it's my first post
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Tumble works as indicated in SRD, except that opponents CAN make
attacks of opportunity against the tumbling character. The tumbling character's skill
helps them avoid the attacks, however.

The character rolls their tumble check, and opponents roll their attack
against the characters tumble check. The following penalties apply

-4 to attack roll for trying to hit moving target* (maybe have combat
reflexes negate this penalty?)
-2 to attack roll for using a medium weapon*
-4 to attack roll for using a large weapon*

these penalties stack. For example, a fighter with a longsword trying to hit a tumbling assassin (rolls 13 plus 4 for dex plus 9 ranks in tumble, total check 26) would have to hit AC 32. If the fighter was using a shortsword and had combat reflexes he would only need to hit AC 26. If on the other hand the assassin rolled a 2 on his tumble roll the fighter would only need to hit AC 21.

 

[Bront]

I don't care for the changing the roll into an opposed AC check.

Keep in mind, that the more people who threaten a square, the higher the DC is. And, since you're moving at half rate, you're moving in most cases no more than 15', which isn't that different from the free 5' that you can't get an AoO from. Plus, if you fail, you can still be attacked, and in some cases, you don't move.

If you want to make the check itself more difficult, that might work. But don't use the tumble skill to replace AC. In example above, if said Assasin rolls a 2, his AC is only 21, which might be lower than his actual AC, which defeats the purpose of the skill and bypasses the normal AC rules.

You could also create a feat that allows you to try to intertupt a tumbler in some way, or rule that a feat like combat reflexes, combat expertise, or even improved trip allows you to react to this better.

 

[benshearon]

Hmmm. Good point. Especially about people ending up with worse AC...

How about some way of increasing the DC depending on opponent's stats?

+2 for every 5 points of BAB opponent has
+2 if opponent has combat reflexes
+2 if opponent has improved initiative
+2 if opponent is using natural or light weapons

(this is in addition to the standard Tumble modifiers)

 

[Bavix]

Tumble fix

I have the same problem with Tumble. It seems ridiculous to me that the DC is the same whether a character is up against a 1st-level commoner or an ancient red dragon.

I just add the opponent's BAB to the Tumble DC. It's a quick fix that seems to work pretty well in our group.

 

[Menexenus]

I think Monte Cook submitted a house rule for this situation long, long ago. If I remember correctly, he suggested that the Tumble roll should be an opposed roll rather than a static DC. Again, IIRC, the tumbler rolled a tumble check and the opponent rolled a d20 modified by his BAB (only). If the tumbler wins, then he/she tumbles by without an AOO. If the opponent wins, then he/she gets the AOO. (I'm sure there's a die-hard Monte-fan out there who could post a link to the article I'm referring to.)

My DM has the Tumble roll opposed to the enemy's Reflex save (rather than opposing it to the BAB roll as described above).

BTW, I like your idea of using Combat Reflexes to provide a circumstance bonus to the roll. Good luck swaying your DM (and welcome to the boards)!

 

[CGoat]

Counter tumble. You roll your tumble check against there's if you win you get the AoO

just give all your NPC's ranks of tumble.

On the other hand tumbling usually gets you out of sticky situations. I guess if you guys are that bloodthirsty for player deaths... then yeah hose the tumble. Because that rogue or monk is really going to mess up that red dragon way too quickly.

Its the same with casting defensively, of course the level of spell does effect the DC, but one doesn't increase the DC by the number of people that are threatening you.

 

[benshearon]

The point actually came up 'cause the DM was having all his NPCs tumble past my tank of an orc fighter

Hence my sudden interest in making tumble a bit more "manageable". But seriously it did bother me that all opponents were treated equally in terms of DC.

I think adding BAB to the DC is perhaps a bit harsh, but under my proposal above a level 16 fighter with improved initiative and combat reflexes would only increase the DC by 10...

Fair?

 

[apesamongus]

You don't draw an AoO from drawing a weapon no matter how tough an opponent you're fighting, so I see no reason it should be different for movement from a tumbler. If you tumble, then you move in such a way that you don't leave yourself open.

 

[Thanee]

In our PnP campaign, we still use a virtual attack roll to set the DC for Tumble, we already used in 3.0.

Basically the DC is determined by an attack roll against you from the creature you want to tumble past. The attack roll uses exactly the modifiers, which you would use for the AoO.

Bye
Thanee

 

[the Jester]

I like the opposed attack roll idea; also, the DC = 10 + BAB idea is pretty good.