I have a real problem with Tumble

[Stalker0]

In AE, its a tumble check against the opponents attack roll if you want to use that.

 

[haiiro]

I think Monte Cook submitted a house rule for this situation long, long ago. If I remember correctly, he suggested that the Tumble roll should be an opposed roll rather than a static DC. Again, IIRC, the tumbler rolled a tumble check and the opponent rolled a d20 modified by his BAB (only). If the tumbler wins, then he/she tumbles by without an AOO. If the opponent wins, then he/she gets the AOO. (I'm sure there's a die-hard Monte-fan out there who could post a link to the article I'm referring to.)

It wound up in Arcana Unearthed (and subsequently, I'd assume, in Arcana Evolved). I'm pretty sure it's Tumble check result vs. attack roll (not just BAB roll), but I don't have my book to check. (There's also some sort of limitation on the distance, but I can't remember that one at all! )

Coupled with the DC mods for different surfaces from the core rules, this makes a Tumble skill that's about right, power-wise -- as opposed to easily abused, like the PHB version. I used it in my last campaign, and it worked pretty well.

 

[comrade raoul]

Tumble works as indicated in SRD, except that opponents CAN make
attacks of opportunity against the tumbling character. The tumbling character's skill
helps them avoid the attacks, however.

My method is a version of this broad approach, but a bit more complicated. I like it a lot. Characters have an incentive to add ranks in Tumble throughout their career, even after they can reliably beat the base DC's. Experienced tumblers can make themselves all but invulnerable to attacks of opportunity against most creatures, but enemies with large attack bonuses (like dragons) still have a chance, and tumbling quickly through difficult terrain provides a limited benefit for even the best tumblers. It looks like this:

Tumbling to Avoid Attacks of Opportunity
You can tumble as part of normal movement to help to avoid attacks of opportunity. When attempting to tumble as part of movement, you can normally move at only half your normal speed (but see below). Make a DC 12 Tumble check. If you succeed, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class against any attacks of opportunity provoked by your movement. Increase this bonus by +1 for every two points by which you beat the DC. Thus, a Tumble check result of 31 made under normal conditions yields a +10 dodge bonus.

When tumbling in difficult terrain, increase the DC according to the table in the SRD. You can move your full speed while tumbling, but you suffer a -10 penalty to your check when doing so. (If you fail your Tumble check, you still have to move at only half speed, as above.) The same Tumble Check result of 31 would yield only a +8 dodge bonus in difficult terrain, where the DC is 17. If you rolled a 31 while tumbling through difficult terrain at your full speed, you'd only gain a +3 dodge bonus.

 

[General Barron]

Tumbling to Avoid Attacks of Opportunity
You can tumble as part of normal movement to help to avoid attacks of opportunity. When attempting to tumble as part of movement, you can normally move at only half your normal speed (but see below). Make a DC 12 Tumble check. If you succeed, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class against any attacks of opportunity provoked by your movement. Increase this bonus by +1 for every two points by which you beat the DC. Thus, a Tumble check result of 31 made under normal conditions yields a +10 dodge bonus.

When tumbling in difficult terrain, increase the DC according to the table in the SRD. You can move your full speed while tumbling, but you suffer a -10 penalty to your check when doing so. (If you fail your Tumble check, you still have to move at only hlaf speed, as above.) The same Tumble Check result of 31 would yield only a +8 dodge bonus in difficult terrain, where the DC is 17. If you rolled a 31 while tumbling through difficult terrain at your full speed, you'd only gain a +3 dodge bonus.

I really like these rules. I don't like the idea of a skill check alone allowing you to completely ignore an attack. Also, these rules are closer to the 2nd ed tumbling rules, which allowed you to spend a full round action tumbling, providing a bonus to AC based on your skill.

 

[Eccles]

My house rule was the DC was 10+the person being tumbled around's ref save.

Which made commoners easier to move around, and the level 18 swashbuckler was a heck of a lot harder. And avoided any opposed rolls, which always slows things down.

 

[ARandomGod]

You can think of it this way, tumble in an optional bonus feat for people who have access to the skill. The feat states that they are immune to attacks of opportunity. This is a very strong feat, so they've balanced it out by also requiring skill points to be spent.

I meantion it this way only because you had problems with a skill functioning in the way it was written, so if you think if it as a feat...

I've occasionally liked the tumble skill increasing the target's AC when mobile... but really you can't have it directly opposed to BAB in that way, or else a tumbler is getting little or nothing out of the skill. Which brings me to the interesting thought that you don't mind the OTHER functions of the skill, and I see those functions as extremely secondary.

ANYhow. Yes, when tumble is used against you, it hurts. Especially if you're an opponent who's specialized in attacking someone on AoO's.

In fact, that's the way I'd personally approach this. Any feat that further specializes your character in making attacks of opportunity adds 2 to the tumble DC. That way against a normal fighter, even with a high BAB, the tumble is the same unless that fighter has had some schooling in attacks of opportunity. Like Combat Reflexes. Hold the Line. Karmic Strike, etcetera.

I think I'd make it a little more complicated and make it +4 to the DC for the first AoO feat, and +2 for subsequent feats. It's a complex houserule, but houserules can BE complex, because we're not catering to the masses, the Least Common Denominator. As long as the GM can understand the rule and apply it fairly and evenly it's good enough. That would improve Combat Reflexes extremely. But in general wouldn't lessen tumble very much unless the fighter took special training.

I think I like that option better than any of the others I've seen before, other than simply leaving it alone ... which I don't have a problem with. They still have to move slower to get to tumble. As someone who's played both sides of the equation, I can state that I think it's pretty fair... unless I'm playing a character who's focused heavily in AoO's, which I played once. There it was much less "fair".

^_^

 

[jgsugden]

Since the very first day 3.0 came out I've been using the following rules (which work great):

The DC for 'tumble past' is 10 + Opponent's reflex save.

The DC for 'tumble through' is 20 + Opponent's reflex save.

It works really well ...