B/X Known World
Agreed.Yeah, and it's that mindset that is the problem, IMO.
I've tried. Nothing I've done has moved that needle one iota. In my experience, players want RAW, RAW, and nothing but RAW. Any change will be a constant fight. I ran a 5E West Marches game almost constantly for the better part of a year...first day to last day...players complained about the tiniest house rule. Players there from the start or new players coming in, didn't matter. They expect RAW and they'll tell you all about it and how wrong you are for making house rules. It never seems to occur to them to not play though. They have a right to play and a right to RAW and you're a terrible referee if you violate either.The best you can do is be clear about your expectations and playstyle at the very beginning, and then stick to it for the first few games, until that mindset changes...gradually and peacefully.
I've only ever seen it evoke a negative response, never a positive one.Changing the rules won't always change that mindset (and even when it does, that change isn't always positive.)
I can't change the expectations players have when they sit down at my table, the devs can. In part, the devs set those expectations in the books. The rest of the players' expectations come from the community. There's nothing I or the devs can really do about that. And don't get me started on players just shouting out skill checks without describing what their characters do in the fiction.I don't really trust the game devs and publishers to try to change my table's expectations; that should be on me. (I promise that's not meant as criticism; the devs do great work...I just need a line between "what the publishers create" and "what I bring to the table." And 5E makes drawing that line really easy.)
I have to work with what I'm given. But I can't change people, nor their preferences, nor their playstyles...and honestly I don't really want to. That's not my job. I can marginally affect their behavior at my table, but I can't really affect their attitudes. If someone's a hardcore power gamer, nothing I say or do will change that. If someone's a hardcore roleplayer, nothing I say or do will change that. Best I can do is get them to tone things down ever so fractionally to keep the game moving and not suck for the rest of the table. I can't break players of the notion that they should get to win effortlessly 90% of the time. Nor can I seem to break players of the notion that they're entitled to whatever they want at the drop of a hat.
If a player isn't a good fit for my table, no harm no foul. We'll go our separate ways. That's not an attitude shared by most players, however. They seem to have this notion that any and all 5E games are open and friendly to whatever style or preferences they bring. Regardless of whatever the referee explicitly tells them when first discussing the game in question.
DM: "This is a game for X. This is not a game for Y."
Player: "I dislike X but like Y, therefore this is a game for Y but not X. Got it."