I hope I'm wrong about this

Bah, Greathouse, you're just defending CRs because of your username. :D


Seriously, though, as much as I like to bash CRs, they get the job done for me.

However, the rule that 1 character level = 1 CR is pure crap.

Why ?

1) When someone asks the game designers how to set the CR for a new creature, they say there is no easy formula, no hard-and-fast rule. There is only playtesting, comparing it to other similar creatures and more playtesting. Then they say "Character levels ? Oh, THAT's easy, 1 level = 1CR, so there you go." What ? WTF happened to playtesting, comparing it to existing creatures and no hard-and-fast rules ?

2) CR assumes that when you double the number of creatures, CR increases by 2. That's why every time you advance a creature in HD by 50%, it's CR increases by 1. Is a pair of 12th level fighters equal in challenge to a 14th level one ? I don't think so.

3) Some monsters show it is clearly not the case. For example, IIRC, the Solar can cast spells as a 20th level cleric AND has many other abilities, and is a paltry CR 19.

I won't even touch the fact that the game designers have point blank told us in the DMG that defeating a 20th level commoner is as challenging as defeating a Solar. Or a 19th level wizard, for that matter.

This is a VERY poorly thought-out rule.
 

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Axiomatic Unicorn said:
Oh come on.

It is your arguement that is getting highly specious.

I don't use the CR system and yet I am clearly without any doubt playing D&D 3E. To compare that to a rule-less freeform is just absurd.

Of course you're playing 3E. Did I say you weren't? I was pointing out that saying the CR system is "completely disposable" because you (or other people) don't use it, is mistaken. At best, all it means is that for _you_ (and other people who feel the same way) it's completely disposable. For _me_ (and plenty of other people who also use CRs), it's not. If all you wanted to say was "CR is useless for me", there would be no problem. But that's not what you said.

Bottom line: if you're going to make sweeping, categorical statements, expect to be called on it.
 

HeavyG said:

3) Some monsters show it is clearly not the case. For example, IIRC, the Solar can cast spells as a 20th level cleric AND has many other abilities, and is a paltry CR 19.

I won't even touch the fact that the game designers have point blank told us in the DMG that defeating a 20th level commoner is as challenging as defeating a Solar. Or a 19th level wizard, for that matter.

This is a VERY poorly thought-out rule.

I think the unstated assumption is that an Xth level character is going to have magic items and other equipment commensurate with their level, if they're to be CR X. A 20th level fighter in a loincloth would be easy to take down even for a party half his level.

Getting back to the solar, a 19th level NPC wizard can be assumed to have magic items worth 170,000gp, which would go at least some way to evening the balance. Would this make the wizard equally dangerous as the solar? Maybe, maybe not; it would be a tossup, I think.

A 20th level commoner is a contradiction in terms, IMO.
 

Well... There is one thing that could back the "CR is completely disposable, period" argument... It is not part of the SRD. You have most of the core D&D rules in the SRD -- but nothing about experience or advancement. The fact is, there *IS* a CR for each creature in the SRD, so CR exist to be more precise. But there's no rules about what to do with them. Nor, AFAIK, about how to extrapolate CR for advanced/classed creatures.
 

If I can dispose of a rule and still be playing the game, the rule is disposable. Are you disputing that?

I get the idea you think I am saying that the CR system MUST be dispossed of by all players. I never stated that.

I am ready to be called on anything I said, are you ready to back up your jabs? So far you have not shown it.

Present any quote from me in this thread and I will back it up.

I am saying more than the CR system is useless to me. I am saying it very frequently does not work as advertised. I am comfortable with both of these positions. Simply attacking me for being critical of an apparent sacred cow does not invalidate my points.
 


hong said:


I think the unstated assumption is that an Xth level character is going to have magic items and other equipment commensurate with their level, if they're to be CR X. A 20th level fighter in a loincloth would be easy to take down even for a party half his level.


Actually, by the official rules a fighter 10 npc (CR 10) would have less gear than any of the 4 level 10 characters he is supposed to be able to drain 25% of the resources from.
 

CRGreathouse said:


This portion of the system is wrong, "broken", and a mistake. I agree there.

Here's my question: short of using the ever-so-popular method of "DM determines XP arbitrarily," what system do you suggest for assigning XP?

This is the one I use and it seems to work great. When I say it works great, I mean it is quick, fairly simple, rewards things besides combat (which is important to me but may not be to some others), and it is easily adaptable for the GM to get the rate of advancement that he wants.

(cut and pasted from my Story Hour)

XP system used by Rel

First, I must note that most of the credit for this system should go to the player who runs Speaks with Stone in my current campaign. He originally designed it to replace the clunky xp system for Rolemaster and since then, he and I have both tweaked and refined it. It works like this:

First, there's a chart that looks sort of like this:

___Combat_____________________________________
___Enchantment________________________________
___Creation_____________________________________
___Skills_______________________________________
___Puzzle_____________________________________
___Sacrifice__________________________________
___Learned_____________________________________
___Character___________________________________
___Goal_______________________________________
___Social______________________________________

___x X

The players each have a copy of this chart for every session. As we go along they write down things that their character has done in a particular category in the big blank to the right.

At the end of the session, they give me the sheets and I "grade their papers". In doing so, I will put "tic marks" in the small blanks to the left if they have fulfilled the requirements for the category. At the bottom I total up all the marks they received and then apply a multiplier based on their current level (represented by the X in the chart above). Currently, the formula I use for the multiplier is 50+(character level x 15).

On average, I'd say the players get around 7 marks per session. If a 5th level player gets 7 marks they would get 875 experience points for the session (the multiplier for a 5th level character is 125 per the above formula).

In practice this meant that it took around 3 sessions for everyone to make 2nd level. On average, it has taken approximately one session longer to reach each of the successive levels than it did to get to 2nd (i.e. 4 more session to make 3rd, 5 more sessions to make 4th, etc.).

When I say that 7 marks is average for a session, I mean precisely that. There have been sessions where some characters only got 4 or 5 marks. And there have been some sessions where they got 10 or 11 marks. It all depends on how involved you are in the game.

Let me give a few details about how I grade the various categories.

Combat - I usually give out one mark for every "minor" combat the group takes part in and two for a "major" combat. These are rather subjective definitions but I'm comfortable with them.

Enchantment - If a character casts at least half their normal spell allotment or uses the powers of most of their magic items, I give them a mark here. If a character goes through their whole spell selection more than once, I usually give them a second point. It has been argued that this category heavily favors the spell casters over the non spell casters but there are other categories that the spell casters are not as likely to get so that doesn't bother me. YMMV.

Creation - The characters get points here for using any craft skills to create things in the game. Sometimes I have given a point if one character in particular was the mastermind of an elaborate plan. Also, I give points here if the player contributes to the game in a material way, such as painting figures, drawing maps for areas of the campaign the characters know about or bringing extensive background material about a topic important to the game (perhaps some stuff they found about Roman architecture, ancient weaponry, mining techniques or anything else that helps bring detail and life to the campaign).

Skills - This is the category the Rogues love. If a character uses most of their skills during a session, they get credit for it here, provided they aren't already getting credit for it elsewhere.

Puzzle - This category represents the character solving a puzzle in game. It applies to elaborate traps and to unraveling the sinister plot of the evil mastermind. I should mention that I don't have that many elaborate traps in my campaign and the evil masterminds are pretty good at hiding their plots so I don't wind up handing out many points in this category.

Sacrifice - This represents heroism in the face of bad odds, putting your character at risk for innocents or helpless party members or giving up something for the greater good. This is one category in which the fighter types tend to outperform the spell casters.

Learned - This category reflects new information that the party has uncovered that is of general interest or specific importance to the plot. This is one that they get credit for almost every session.

Character - This is another point they should be getting every session because it reflects how they portray the personality of their character. Exhibiting the quirks, flaws and peculiarities of your character will always get you a point here. If you have a session where the quintessential personality of your character is captured in almost every scene, you'll get two points here.

Goal - Characters get points here for accomplishing major party goals as well as minor goals the character sets for themselves. I have the players tell me their goals in advance (or else they don't get credit for them) which gives me an indicator as to which way the campaign will likely be headed.

Social - They get credit mostly for interacting with NPC's in meaningful ways. I don't usually give credit for interactions within the party but I sometimes will if one of the characters shares a story or other details from their background that the other party members didn't already know.


I've said it before and I'll say it again: This system may not work for everyone! But I think it has several things going for it that work really well for me and the group I game with.

First, I never have to use the CR system in the DMG to figure out xp. I don't have to crack a book while I'm giving out experience because everything I need is on their sheet or in my head.

Second, it rewards the players for doing things besides combat. If some kind of encounter is important to the campaign, the players don't feel any need to rush through it to get to the combat. They know that they will be rewarded so long as what they're doing is relevant to the story, whether it be fighting monsters, conducting a diplomatic mission, celebrating the birthday of a loved one or doing espionage.

Third, it keeps the players focused on the game if they record stuff on these sheets during play. They may notice that they haven't put anything in the blank next to "Character" yet and that reminds them that they should be putting more of their character's personality into the session. If they haven't put anything in the "Goal" category yet, maybe they need to focus on what the group is trying to accomplish and not get side tracked by looting a room full of dead goblins.

Ugh, this long post makes it look like this system could be a nightmare! I promise, it isn't. I swear I spend 5-10 minutes maximum figuring experience at the end of the sessions. Most of that is me trying to do the multiplication in my head! Anyhow, if you have any more questions about the system, I'll be happy to answer them and you're obviously free to use it if you like.
 

Rel - this looks like a fine system, but it still won't replace the CR systrem for XP. The CR/XP system exists for newbie DMs; once a DM gets a good feel for it, he/she can simply award XP without any written system at all.

CRGreathouse said:
While this is a good method (and my personal method), I was more interested in what XP system would be best for the game itself, that is, for those DMs without the experience to award XP on their own.
 

CRGreathouse said:
Rel - this looks like a fine system, but it still won't replace the CR systrem for XP. The CR/XP system exists for newbie DMs; once a DM gets a good feel for it, he/she can simply award XP without any written system at all.

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "it won't replace the CR systrem (sic) for XP". It certainly fills that role in my campaign.

If what you mean is that my system wouldn't work for newbie DM's because it it too complex, I would disagree. One reason I would disagree is that the first 3E campaign that I played in was run by a friend who had never DMed before and he used this system. It worked fine.

If you mean that it doesn't provide any guidelines as to how challenging the DM should make the opposition, you're correct. But I would also assert (as have many others here) that many of the CR's in WotC's products are so obviously wrong that any novice GM is going to have problems anyway if he only looks at the CR and doesn't double check the true capabilities of a monster.

As for the issue of experienced DM's awarding XP without any written system at all, I don't feel very comfortable with that myself (YMMV).

Anyhow, I didn't mean to suggest that my system was some kind of magic bullet or that it should have been the system included in the original rules. It was created because it meets my desires for a good XP system (namely it is easy to use, relatively fair, encourages good roleplaying and awards activities besides combat).

This thread was about how many folks seem to think that the CR/XP system "is broken" or otherwise doesn't fit their needs. I offer mine as a compromise. Quite obviously, it can be taken or left.
 

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