D&D 5E I just don't buy the reasoning behind "damage on a miss".

[pemerton]

I just want it as an option. Make it a part of a feat or something for a subclass gets would be fine with my just so that my players who like it have it as a published option.

I think the negative response on it being optional is what set us all off.

It is optional. It's an optional fighter class feature.

 

[Sunseeker]

This is why not everyone regards the change in saving throw methodology from AD&D to 3E as an improvement.

You know integrating the two would make for an interesting mod-rule.

Your defense is the magic number you set for your opponent to hit. The DC of the save you must make from their special ability is the magic number they set. The value by which you hit beyond their AC, or the value by which you miss, could then be applied to the DC for the ability that triggers on damage not on hitting. So "They" miss "You" by 5 points, so their DC is reduced by 5 points. Complex, but it would be a good way to prevent characters who are good at avoiding damage though physical skills from being decimated by mental-based saves.

 

[MichaelSomething]

One time a player was attacking a T-Rex by throwing shurikens at it. Whenever that player would miss I would say, "you hit it, and it doesn't care!" because I imagine a decently leveled character could hit the board side of a barn (which is sized similar to a T-Rex). However, making the shuriken hit a point that would hurt the T-Rex is a bit harder...

 

[Ahnehnois]

GM adjudicaiton is not the same as a house rule - it's pretty basic to most mainstream tabletop RPGs.

So are house rules.

 

[Imaro]

At your service!


Here is the fireball text from Moldvay Basic:

This spell creates a missile of fire that explodes into a ball of fire 40' diamter when it strikes a target. The fire ball will case 1-6 (1d6) points of fire damage per evel of the caster to all creatures within this area. If a victim of a fireball spell saves vs Spells, the spell will only do 1/2 damage.​

Here is the fireball text from the 4e PHB:

Standard Action
Area burst 3 within 20 squares
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex
Hit: 3d6 + Intelligence modifier fire damage.
Miss: Half damage.​

That is basically indistinguishable from the Moldvay text, other than format. Neither talks about damage to objects. Both assume that the participants at the table can work out that a great honking ball of fire (40' d in Moldvay Basic, 7sq x 7 sq in 4e) is capable of setting flammable material alight.

Well now lets look at some of the other editions, not just basic D&D

Here is the AD&D 1e version, emphasis mine...

Fireball (Evocation)

Level: 3
Range: 10" + 1"/level
Duration: Instantaneous
Area of Effect: 2" radius sphere
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 3 segments
Saving Throw: ½

Explanation/Description: A fireball is an explosive burst of flame, which detonates with a low roar, and delivers damage proportionate to the level of the magic-user who cast it, i.e. 1 six-sided die (d6) for each level of experience of the spell caster. Exception: Magic fireball wands deliver 6 die fireballs (6d6), magic staves with this capability deliver 8 die fireballs, and scroll spells of this type deliver a fireball of from 5 to 10 dice (d6 + 4) of damage. The burst of thefireball does not expend a considerable amount of pressure, and the burst will generally conform to the shape of the area in which it occurs, thus covering an area equal to its normal spherical volume. [The area which is covered by the fireballis a total volume of roughly 33,000 cubic feet (or yards)]. Besides causing damage to creatures, the fireball ignites all combustible materials within its burst radius, and the heat of the fireball will melt soft metals such as gold, copper, silver, etc. Items exposed to the spell's effects must be rolled for to determine if they are affected. Items with a creature which makes its saving throw are considered as unaffected. The magic-user points his or her finger and speaks the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A streak flashes from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body prior to attaining the prescribed range, flowers into the fireball. If creatures fail their saving throws, they all take full hit point damage from the blast. Those who make saving throws manage to dodge, fall flat or roll aside, taking ½ the full hit point damage - each and every one within the blast area. The material component of this spell is a tiny ball composed of bat guano and sulphur. [1E PHB, p. 73]


AD&D 2e...

Fireball (Evocation)
Range: 10 yds. + 10 yds./level
Duration: Instantaneous
Area of Effect: 20-ft. radius
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 3
Saving Throw: ½

A fireball is an explosive burst of flame, which detonates with a low roar and delivers damage proportional to the level of the wizard who cast it--1d6 points of damage for each level of experience of the spellcaster (up to a maximum of 10d6). The burst of the fireball creates little pressure and generally conforms to the shape of the area in which it occurs. The fireball fills an area equal to its normal spherical volume (roughly 33,000 cubic feet--thirty-three 10-foot × 10-foot × 10-foot cubes). Besides causing damage to creatures, the fireball ignites all combustible materials within its burst radius, and the heat of the fireball melts soft metals such as gold, copper, silver, etc. Exposed items require saving throws vs. magical fire to determine if they are affected, but items in the possession of a creature that rolls a successful saving throw are unaffected by the fireball.
The wizard points his finger and speaks the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A streak flashes from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball (an early impact results in an early detonation). Creatures failing their saving throws each suffer full damage from the blast. Those who roll successful saving throws manage to dodge, fall flat, or roll aside, each receiving half damage (the DM rolls the damage and each affected creature suffers either full damage or half damage [round fractions down], depending on whether the creature saved or not).
The material component of this spell is a tiny ball of bat guano and sulphur. [2E PHB, Appendix 3]

And the description text from 3e...

A fireball spell is an explosion of flame that detonates with a low roar and deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area. Unattended objects also take this damage. The explosion creates almost no pressure.
You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.
The fireball sets fire to combustibles and damages objects in the area. It can melt metals with low melting points, such as lead, gold, copper, silver, and bronze. If the damage caused to an interposing barrier shatters or breaks through it, the fireball may continue beyond the barrier if the area permits; otherwise it stops at the barrier just as any other spell effect does.

So while 4e may have a similar description to basic D&D, it does lack the information on how it interacts with objects that was presented in the 3 most recent previous editions of D&D. I would say just as in Basic D&D, since there are no rules stating otherwise, whether a fireball ignites any combustibles is entirely left in the hands of the DM. I also think it's a little misleading to only present the edition of D&D that supports your assertion but then ignore the 3 most recent editions.

From the 4e DMG pp 65-66:

Damaging Objects
Like characters, objects have hit points and defense scores (except for Will defense; see Object Immunities and Vulnerabilities, below). . .

Object Immunities and Vulnerabilities
Usually, it doesn’t matter what kind of attack you make against an object: Damage is damage. However, there are a few exceptions.

All objects are immune to poison damage, psychic damage, and necrotic damage.

Objects don’t have a Will defense and are immune to attacks that target Will defense.

Some unusual materials might be particularly resistant to some or all kinds of damage. In addition, you might rule that some kinds of damage are particularly effective against certain objects and grant the object vulnerability to that damage type. For example, a gauzy curtain or a pile of dry papers might have vulnerability 5 to fire because any spark is likely to destroy it.​

I think this is pretty clear.

I'm going to disagree about how clear it is. It would seem, from the passage listed above, that all objects are damaged by spells which hit them unless the power does psychic, poison or necrotic damage... However then why does 4e have "object" as a specific type of target in the game on certain powers in PHB 1?? Furthermore, why then was rule in PHB2/DMG2, that players can affect objects that normally target creatures with the DM's permission, added? I'm not saying your interpretation is wrong... however, I am saying that it is in no way as clear as you seem to be trying to make it.

What is the GM being asked to adjudicate? I think it's pretty clear that it is the fictional positioning of the objects, and of the PC in relation to the objects if that is in doubt. That a [fire] power can set things alight is pretty unambiguous. That's what fire does:

(From PHB p 55): Fire: Explosive bursts, fiery rays, or simple ignition.​

The player doesn't need the GM's permission to establish that, in the game, when fireball is cast, the area is filled with an explosive burst!

At least going by the DMG 2 the player needs GM's permission to be able to establish the fiction that something other than creatures was affected by that explosive burst, and more importantly for it to have a mechanical effect... You can describe the room filled with a fiery burst... but in order for an object to be described as affected and take damage from said burst you need DM permission.

 

[ForeverSlayer]

I look at it like a water balloon.

If you want hit someone directly for maximum soakage then it would take a successful hit. If you missed them and hit the wall beside them then they are going to get wet but not as much.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I look at it like a water balloon.

If you want hit someone directly for maximum soakage then it would take a successful hit. If you missed them and hit the wall beside them then they are going to get wet but not as much.

So all weapons are now grenade-like weapons? Grrr....

 

[herrozerro]

lets also talk about potent cantrip, at level 5 a wizard can have at will damage on a miss without expending any resources.

 

[Wicht]

lets also talk about potent cantrip, at level 5 a wizard can have at will damage on a miss without expending any resources.

That sounds like a spell with a similar problem; though in this case less about believability and more about a mechanic that makes a character always successful all of the time. Which is problematic.

 

[herrozerro]

That sounds like a spell with a similar problem; though in this case less about believability and more about a mechanic that makes a character always successful all of the time. Which is problematic.

I'm just saying, fighting style to give damage on a miss with no resource expenditure is bad. But a wizard gets practically the same thing albeit 5 levels later, but no one seems to care?