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D&D 5E I just don't buy the reasoning behind "damage on a miss".

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This is actually the very heart of the problem. It's not 'damage on a miss'; it's damage on a hit. How do we know whether it was a hit or miss? Because by definition, a hit is defined as "Solid enough of a blow to do damage." That's the D&D definition of a hit. If you are seeing damage, you are never seeing a miss. There is not need to invent a category for 'lesser hit' and then say, 'oh that was always a miss, now I'm going to call it damage on a miss' as if there was some narration of damage that wasn't considered in the system until 'damage on a miss' came along.

Where people get confused is they understand that hit abstractly include some sort of measurement of luck, skill, destiny, and so forth as well as the capacity to sustain physical punishment. While that is true, it is also true that under D&D's model, all hits have always caused physical damage. Gygax defined hits as doing damage; even Mearls has asserted this traditional definition. The way to really see what hit points are is it think about a relatively unskilled fighter with 5 hit points, and a quite skilled one with 30 hit points. For the low skill combatant, all 5 of his hit points represent the ability to absorb physical damage. So if someone swings a sword at him and does 5 damage, the low skill combatant has little ability to evade this attack, he takes the full blow and possibly dies. For the high skill combatant, he may still have roughly 5 hit points of ability to absorb physical damage, but he now has 25 entirely abstract hit points representing his ability to turn aside blows, block blows with his shield, or dodge aside at the last moment so that he only catches part of the blow. When the high skill combatant is attacked by a sword and takes 5 damage, he loses physical health and abstract ability proportionally, so that he loses perhaps just 1 hit point of physical health and 4 hit points of abstract metaphysical health. The fighter took a 5 point hit, but he received the damage that the lower level combatant would have received on a 1 point hit. The rest was evaded. There is never a case however where he is hit by a blow that damages only his metaphysical health. All hits do at least some physical damage. That's the way it has always worked.

So, now that we understand how a hit has been defined, what is damage on a miss?

The answer is nothing. It's a contradiction in terms. It's an oxymoron. A miss is defined not by the fact that it whiffed, but by the fact it did no damage

People trying to justify 'damage on a miss' do so through several impossibilities before breakfast. The first is requiring us to try to concretely visualize what the abstract portion of a character's hit points are. So you'll here suggestions like, "The blow misses (maybe even whiffs), but it tires the opponent out.' But while vigor and fatigue might sound like reasonably good components of the abstract metaphysical health of character, in point of fact D&D has never modeled fatigue through the hit point mechanic. First editions fatigue rules weren't entirely coherent, but the most prominent example I can think of models fatigue as temporary level drain. Third edition coherently defines it as a condition. Neither generally applies to any kind of ordinary exertion, and really, if it is fatiguing hits we are trying to model, why not have them apply a debuff instead of doing damage? If you try to model hit points as fatigue, you end up with absurdities - why don't you lose hit points for attacking an opponent, running, climbing stairs, dancing, etc. Shouldn't any aerobic exercise do at least as much hit point damage as spending six seconds dodging and parrying if all we are modeling is fatigue?

The second problem is that they ask AC to be abstract, when in fact AC is not entirely abstract but can often be broken down into components even in 1e. We don't usually worry in D&D about why an attacked missed, and we leave that to free narration. But there are times when the only narration that makes sense in the system is one or the other, because the AC of the target is clearly entirely one thing or the other and not some mixture. In the 3e stat block, the break down of what makes up AC is done formally, and it even tries to define special conditions - 'touch' and 'flat-footed' - when it narratively makes sense that one component of AC is missing. In D&D it is possible, to know if an attack whiffed, was dodged, or block, or glanced off armor by working backward from the more abstract AC to its less abstract components. But what about a case were every attack that wasn't a hit, we know to be an attack that whiffed. In that case we lose the ability to narrate this consistent with the rest of the fiction created by the game mechanics.

One of the reason that we have to each hit connect with flesh is that hits in game trigger process consequences - energy drain, poison, bonus fire damage, paralyzation, etc. If it is 'damage on a miss', and we don't know whether this means a whiff or contact, we don't know whether or not to trigger the consequences. If we treat this as fortune in the middle and hold off narration further, the logic of the save system breaks down. If you were 'damaged on a miss', but we resolve this a Stormbringer whiffing because your soul wasn't sucked out, why did you need to make a Fortitude based body save instead of a Relfex based evasion save? Surely if it whiffed (but still did damage!) and that's the reason your draining attack failed, a Reflex save is the appropriate color of what happened and not Fortitude. And so forth.

In short, within in the existing framework of D&D, accepting 'damage on a miss' involves accepting that the mechanics are meaningless within the fiction. If you always believed the mechanics were meaningless within the fiction, that's probably an easy thing to do. But its quite clear that the writers that created the mechanics didn't feel they were meaningless within the fiction, and that many people use them as process simulation/physics to inform the narration and always have.

And frankly, if you think that is 'Pervy', get the heck of my game system and go play some Forge approved rules set. And no, 'X system plays better as process/simulation' isn't a retort. I like D&D they way it always played. I don't want it more or less abstract. It's a sweet spot for me. If it isn't a sweet spot for you sorry, but this is mine.

Excellent post... if a bit emphatic :-)
The points you make certainly inform the debate, but I don't think they are as final as you tend to present them :
* you are overstating what "the definition of a hit in D&D" is. This thread shows that it varies from edition to edition, from table to table, and maybe from player to player at the same table. Each player has to come with a mapping of his (or his character ?) intent, his declaration, the proceeding of the resolution system, the system outcome, the fictional outcome. Obviously, the system is quite abstract, not perfectly consistent, evolving through time. In AD&D, a ToHitRollMiss doesn't map well with "I can't manage to strike my target" becakuse of the 1 minute round. In 3e, I make regular use of "miss" when a d20 roll is below the target number, be it AC or DC. Things are not cut as clearly as you mention (and it could mean such mechanics should be avoided if they are painful for some players)
* concerning damage on a miss : would those who dislike the mechanic would be more at ease with the damage being "non lethal" ? I find it a good model of advancing towards victory with causing an actual wound. Of course, one might require a specific handling of non lethal damage by the system... or not ;-)
 

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Cross-posted for relevance:

I hate the words "hit" and "miss". We never should have used them. Plate armor doesn't make you harder to hit. It makes you harder to hurt. You have success in your attack, or failure. And mechanics exist to mitigate some failures.

This.

And one of the well designed part of the proposed mechanics is that it respects order. Damage-wise :
(complete failure = 0 dmg) < partial failure (= STR mod dmg) < partial success (STR mod + [W] dmg) < complete success ( STR mod + max [W]
+ crit die)
 

So you don't know for a fact but have plenty of conjecture with a side of anecdotal evidence...



First off where in all of my posts that you've quoted did I mention anything about what classes were core for 4e and which weren't? How did this even come up? See this is what I'm talking about when I say you are rambling about things that have nothing to do with what I am talking about. And again we see that your "evidence" amounts to... the people I talked to, which is in fact not evidence for anything at all. Oh, and I'm not arguing whether WotC labeled every 4e book core or not, at best it's tangential to my original point, I think everyone in this thread (with the exception of you) seems to have gotten my point and was able to follow along with what I was saying.

Here is what keeps happening. I keep assuming you know what you're talking about. For example, I assume when you engage in a discussion of this nature you would (like anyone who played 4e for any length of time) know immediately why I would mention those four classes in the context of a discussions of whether or not PHB 2 was core or not.

But you don't know what you're talking about, but you blunder on ahead anyway as if you do.

So I don't know where to go here. I cannot imagine someone engaging in this debate not knowing what the basic features of the thing they are discussing were.

Nobody got your point. You have no point anymore. You just declared, to anyone reading this, that you had not even the most basic knowledge of 4e to work with and yet jumped in anyway. And what you called "ramblings" is what everyone who played 4e knows quite well - it's basic level knowledge they all possess.
 

Here is what keeps happening. I keep assuming you know what you're talking about. For example, I assume when you engage in a discussion of this nature you would (like anyone who played 4e for any length of time) know immediately why I would mention those four classes in the context of a discussions of whether or not PHB 2 was core or not.

Uhm no, that's not what's happening... you keep stating or assuming things I never said (like your previous statement about me giving 3e a pass???)... show me where I said anything about those classes... yet you're asking me if I'm making a statement about them. It's like having a discussion in bizzaro land. It's not about you mentioning them, it's about you asking me what I was saying about them when I haven't commented on them period.

But you don't know what you're talking about, but you blunder on ahead anyway as if you do.

If this were true, which it's not... what does that say about you since you continue to reply? Dance puppet...

So I don't know where to go here. I cannot imagine someone engaging in this debate not knowing what the basic features of the thing they are discussing were.

Oh, I know about 4e what I don't know is where, besides guessing, you are getting any of your sales/usage info on the PHB2 or DDI... please enlighten me, what's your official source again... I mean besides "Some gamers I know"? you want my advice don't go anywhere with this anymore, it's embarrassing... you're making no point, you have no evidence and yes... you are rambling

Nobody got your point. You have no point anymore. You just declared, to anyone reading this, that you had not even the most basic knowledge of 4e to work with and yet jumped in anyway. And what you called "ramblings" is what everyone who played 4e knows quite well - it's basic level knowledge they all possess.

So you speak for everyone on enworld now?? Wait and now you're speaking for me as well... You can easily prove what you're saying just show us, everyone on enworld where your evidence is? If it's common knowledge that nearly everyone who used the PHB1 also bought and used the PHB2 and/or everyone who played D&D 4e were also DDI customers... show us where the evidence is... and please can we do it without your continual effort to obfuscate the fact that you are pulling data out of thin air, talking about things you couldn't possibly know for sure and stating your opinions as fact by making nonsensical statements about the entirety of enworld... Otherwise, just stop.
 
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The number of men knocked out by a glancing blow that grazes them just on the right spot disagrees with you. Any time you see this happen its either a glancing blow to the temple causing a cerebral concussion or a shot to the right spot in the jawline causing a carotid sinus reflex with syncope.

(snip)

That pretty much explains it. You are unmoved, yes?
The problem is, some of us would define "a glancing blow that grazes them just on the right spot" as a successful melee attack roll (a "hit.") I think that is where the disconnect lies.
 

The problem is, some of us would define "a glancing blow that grazes them just on the right spot" as a successful melee attack roll (a "hit.") I think that is where the disconnect lies.

Which is fine. I wasn't aiming at that question. I was aiming at the position that was incredulous toward the concept of "glancing blow could be impactful/relevant."
 

The problem is, some of us would define "a glancing blow that grazes them just on the right spot" as a successful melee attack roll (a "hit.") I think that is where the disconnect lies.
The rule in question, though, deals at most 1 less than the lowest possible damage roll on a hit, so it isn't just like a hit, and is worthy (IMHO) of some kind of place in the abstract combat model.
 

* concerning damage on a miss : would those who dislike the mechanic would be more at ease with the damage being "non lethal" ? I find it a good model of advancing towards victory with causing an actual wound. Of course, one might require a specific handling of non lethal damage by the system... or not ;-)

I think from an aesthetic point of view for what "feels" right for me and my group I would probably like this better than the current model for damage on a miss... but from a practicality/game play perspective I can understand that it would be kind of fiddly to keep track of, and I'm not sure every DM would want to deal with it for such a small amount of damage. Perhaps allowing the DM to decide whether the damage is lethal or non-lethal for his particular game might be a possible compromise.
 

wrightdjohn Any chance damage on a miss could be optional? Any feedback on this?

MikeMearls It's actually tested pretty well so far, but as usual we watch everything.

Valdark2 "Pretty well so far?" Have you read the level of contention that sole mechanic has created on the forums?

MikeMearls Remember that we work from the surveys - the forums are part of the process, but not all of it.


I thought that when Mearls tweeted this over two weeks ago the issue would slow down not escalate, the designers have spoken. Play test feedback from the surveys shows great support for the idea a little larger sample size then the posters on any forum.

I think the negative response on it being optional is what set us all off.

It was the first time Id seen a dev flat out say no to a modular solution.
 

Uhm no, that's not what's happening... you keep stating or assuming things I never said (like your previous statement about me giving 3e a pass???)... show me where I said anything about those classes...

Here is why you said something about those classes (which, again, you'd know if you knew much about 4e). When arguing if the PHB2 was, or was not, a core product of the 4e system, you have to know what's in PHB 1 and PHB 2, and how they were set to address "core" issues. Which includes knowing, at least on some basic level, the fact that four "core" level classes were held back to be in the PHB 2. Those four "core" level classes were the four I mentioned. So to argue that PHB 2 is not a "core" product of 4e, you are inherently by-definition arguing that those four classes were not core classes for 4e. There is no escaping that fact - PHB 2 being non-core is the same as saying those four classes are non-core. Which is why I said that.

And now, due to your utter lack of knowledge concerning 4e, you don't even understand why I mentioned those core classes. Which is ridiculous given you voluntarily engaged in a discussion concerning 4e and what was or was not "core" for it.

That's your own doing. That you dislike the result of foolishly diving into a discussion for which you did not know the first thing is an expected result.

So you speak for everyone on enworld now??

Yes, that's exactly what I said, I speak for everyone on EnWorld now.

Wait and now you're speaking for me as well...

Yeah I speak for you too. That's definitely not a mischaracterization of what I said, not at all. You're engaging in a very honest discussion. That's you, all honesty and wholesomeness.

This is the point where I think it's safe for me to exit the conversation. I think we all know where you're coming at this from, at this point. You go ahead and take the last word - we both know you will.
 

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