I killed a character, twice!

[Aegeri]

The tactic change here was justified. The Incubi were repeatedly unsuccessful in throwing the PC off the tower. Instead, they knocked out the PC then threw her off the tower. Seems a reasonable change in tactics to me.

The problem with this is it adds to the PC in questions perception she was picked on by the DM (even if she wasn't intentionally picked on). In reality being too successful at staying on the tower was what got her killed. Yet it's worth noting this didn't happen with the other remaining PC, who wasn't beat down and thrown off (she only lasted *one* more round longer remember) - so it would feel as if she wasn't given that fair a chance. Perhaps if they had failed all their pushes that round, clawing her would have felt like a more "reasonable" course of action to that PC. But honestly with 4 vs 1 and I suspect a +5 bonus to attacks, it honestly shouldn't have been that unlikely to force her off in that situation.

 

[SuddenImpact]

My thoughts: It's the DM's job to run the adventure and make it fun. Monsters should not focus fire because regardless if it is 'logical' the result is to kill the character.
You should give the characters a chance to retreat, so even if that situation is going on, have the other monsters start going down to get the other characters or some other such diversion. D&D is not meant to be realistic, but fun.

 

[Mummolus]

My thoughts: It's the DM's job to run the adventure and make it fun. Monsters should not focus fire because regardless if it is 'logical' the result is to kill the character.
You should give the characters a chance to retreat, so even if that situation is going on, have the other monsters start going down to get the other characters or some other such diversion. D&D is not meant to be realistic, but fun.

This is true, but only to an extent. At some point 'fixing' encounters in the favor of the players can be very immersion-breaking, because at any given time a player expects certain behavior from monsters. If the immersion is broken by a DM deliberately and obviously using bad tactics, fun goes out the window.

 

[DEFCON 1]

You can see the attitude easily in previous posts as some won't consider deliberately falling a better idea to being outnumbered by monsters that clearly outmatch you and will beat to death. It amuses me that falling is seen as suicidal, while standing unable to do anything (constantly dominated) against 5 daemons is seen as not being suicidal as well (it's hardly heroic either).

It's because of trying to think and behave in a way that makes some sort of sense plus does not use metagame thinking for the decision-making process.

If I'm on the roof of an office building and there are five guys up there trying to beat my ass to death... my thought process goes this way:

1) Can I defeat them in any sort of hand-to-hand combat?
2) Is there any way for me to run away from them and get back downstairs?
3) Can I just surrender to them and hope they let me live?
4) Can I bluff playing dead?
5) Can I try and talk them out of this course of action?

Then at the very end of this list is "Can I jump from the building and fall 100 feet to the concrete"? Now I'm sorry, but this last option *IS* suicidal for any rational thinking human who has not yet tried options 2-5 yet... unless you know from the metagame that you only are taking 10d10 (or in this game's version, 10d6) points of damage when you land.

Without the metagame knowledge of how the Falling rules work... possibly being killed by the incubi up in the tower is a much better proposition that definitely dying from a 100 foot fall. One option gives you a chance to survive, the other doesn't. It's only because of the metagame that we players can realize for our characters that "Hey! A 100 foot fall isn't insta-death! In fact it's barely even a slight bruise if I'm at full hit points! Screw it! Let's FLY!!!!! Wheeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!"

So for this PC doing everything in her power NOT to go hurtling down to certain doom was in no way a bad decision looking at it purely from a scenic point of view.

 

[Ketjak]

This is not the OP's fault

@Morrus;did only one thing wrong: he didn't warn the players that when they go into the ancient dragon's lair, the dragon is not going to fly away to protect them. That is, sometimes there are places that PCs should not go because the fights there might actually hurt them.

This is one of those times.

Worse, the player could have turned it into a heroic last stand, but instead only complained about it and likely ruined the experience not just for her, but for the DM.

Whether he did it by mistake (poor encounter design) or deliberately (deathtrap encounter) doesn't matter. The players (four strikers - not a single leader) figured they could take the incubi. We don't know their actions leading up to the last character's death, but they were probably not conservative (nor can they afford to be) and they certainly weren't coordinated except to stay out of each others' way (look at the role selection...). This death is partially on the DM's shoulders, but 80% of it rests on the players' shoulders.

I had a 15 year old* player tell me "Anything to survive; even if I have to give up all my stuff, I can still come back later and take it back." If the player had role-played that she couldn't resist the dominate (which is what failing the save to throw herself off the ledge really represents, not a choice by the *character*), she might have died (earlier when it was first 1:1, with more hit points, perhaps not). However, she would have been raised and could have come back to try again, this time smarter. Or they could have avoided the encounter.

I hesitate to do so, but let's also recall a period now 9 years old in which people chose to face death by plummeting 1000 feet rather than facing potential death by fire. In fact, this is (in the characters' world) even irresponsible: neither the PC nor the player knew that the incubi would not then turn her corpse into a weapon to use against her friends. Faced with that choice, not merely a choice between deaths, the honorable and sensible choice is for the player to role-play the inability to resist and drop, thereby denying the enemy her stuff and undead support.

This is not entirely Incendax's fault, nor is it even mostly. The poster who believes the onus of fun is on the DM's shoulders seems to ignore that the players have a responsibility to make the game fun.

- Ket, now late for work

* He was 15 years old... in 1985. I was also 15.

 

[DEFCON 1]

This death is partially on the DM's shoulders, but 80% of it rests on the players' shoulders.

As the DM had the PC unconscious up in the tower and thus the fight was over, but he then chose to throw the body over the side anyway... I would disagree with your percentages.

 

[MrMyth]

This is not entirely Incendax's fault, nor is it even mostly. The poster who believes the onus of fun is on the DM's shoulders seems to ignore that the players have a responsibility to make the game fun.

Sure, but I think there are certain things much more in the DM's domain than the players.

There are games where it is appropriate to have encounters like this that are designed to kill PCs. And I do support the idea that player's should realize not every fight is winnable, and respond accordingly. On the other hand, if a group does get taken out of the blue by a fight like this, and if a player is actively telling the DM that they didn't have fun due to the way he was running things... yeah, I think the DM needs to get his act together.

Either that means getting everything together and making sure they are all on the same page as far as what style of campaign he is running, or try to run a game that will be fun for everyone.

 

[shamsael]

If your group is willing, I would retcon the first death since it was the result of a rules misinterpretation.

I think the second death should stand.

As for whether or not you were picking on the player, I've personally endured worse. My favourite character ever also happened to be one which my DM had a personal vendetta against.

The worst of his many many deaths was after successfully clearing a dungeon of Yuan-ti, I jokingly searched for secret doors on the way out. Without rolling, the DM said I found one. When I opened the door, he announced that I had died.

The DM claimed there was a Finger of Death Trap, which was appropriate because it was a 7th level spell and we were 7th level characters. I reminded him that 7th level spells were appropriate for 13th level characters, and beside that, I was still entitled to a fort save which I still failed due to low Con.

He then announced to the party that beyond the trapped door, which had one charge, they found an amulet or something to that effect that improved the wearer's fort save (something I'd been desperately trying to find for some time).

The entire group called BS and demanded to see the text in his adventure notes (which were always meticulously organized, typed and printed for each session) saying there was a secret door with a finger of death trap. He quickly wrote in pencil, in the margin, "Secret Door. Finger of Death. +2 Fort." And demanded we respect his right to improvise.

Long story short, your player had a rough time, but it wasn't bad enough to meet my definition of unfair.

 

[Riastlin]

As the DM had the PC unconscious up in the tower and thus the fight was over, but he then chose to throw the body over the side anyway... I would disagree with your percentages.

Honestly, a party comprised solely of strikers is almost always going to be just a few bad rolls away from a PC death. If it didn't happen here, it likely would have happened elsewhere soon enough.

That being said, having now had a chance to look at the Incubus entry in the compendium, I agree that perhaps a better course of action would have been to have the incubi capture (or even flat out kill) the PC in question and then one of them take the shape of the fallen PC. This could have even been accomplished by either having the "PC" take a dive off the tower, or simply run like hell out of the tower.

The beauty of this plan would be that the player could keep playing her "PC" only now she also has another (likely much darker) agenda. This could actually be a ton of fun to play for the player in question. The only real problem with this choice would be doing it in such a way as to not tip off the rest of the party. This is where I think tossing the PC off the tower helps. DM "rolls" and the PC miraculously only takes 12 damage (or whatever is enough to just keep the PC up). Afterward you simply pull the player aside and tell her what's up.

Suddenly you now have a really interesting campaign arc, the player gets to continue player her PC, and the party eventually gets to seek out vengeance when they realize they've been duped -- and possibly rescue the real PC.

Of course, its real easy for me to come up with all of this since I have been reading this thread and had some time to think things through. Its a lot harder to improvise this though. Given that its entirely likely that the DM did not consider this course of action at the time, I really have no problem with the incubi tossing the unconscious PC off the ledge. After all they had shown that they didn't want anyone in there.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Wow, it's amazing just how much difference in philosophies is revealed in the discussion here.

While I want to be supportive of the OP, I have to side with the "Are you nuts?" crowd. If I were one of those players (not just the one who died twice) I think I would be pretty ticked off about that encounter. The Dominated status is not fun, and the way it was used seems harsh.

As for the comments that a party with 4 strikers was the cause of the defeat, it's hard for me to picture how a couple of healing surges triggered by a leader would have helped, or how a controller forcing one of the five flying incubi to land would have made a difference. Sure, there are places where a balanced party would make a big difference, but I don't see it in this case. Can anyone give an actual example of how a non-striker could have turned the tide?

Overall, I think that death by falling is far underrated as a source of total or partial PKs. In the campaigns I play in, fully half of all character deaths have been by falling. Frankly, I think it would be worth the time for the esteemed creators of 4e to do an article on how to add risk of falling to an encounter without making it unexpectedly deadly.

Finally, let me just make a plea to DMs: You ask us - nay, beg, implore or even require us - to come up with great, detailed backgrounds for our characters. You want us to roleplay with relish and gusto, to dive into the character and make it come alive. And then, more often than I think is appropriate, you kill them off. The net result is that with each successive character generated, your players feel less and less excitement about doing all that great background stuff. Why bother, when the character's family, friends, former lover, second grade study partner, and latent lycanthropy never make an appearance at all due to premature demise?

Obviously, this is worthy of its own thread, so I will leave it there.