I killed a character, twice!

[CovertOps]

Now that I know the party composition, I think all this must be at least partially the party's fault. Playing 4 strikers is just ASKING for someone to get killed!

That being said, DMG page 44 has suggested falling distances at various levels. The Level 10 suggestions are: 30 ft for a "regular" fall, 50 ft for a "serious" fall, and 70 ft for a "deadly" fall. These seem about right for making "negative bloody" deaths rarely happen except for "deadly" falls. Needless to say, the 100 ft fall is a bit much. That's a Paragon fall, not a Heroic fall - who knew falls had tiers?

@100 ft. we're talking 10d10 which averages out to 55 damage. If we use the new MM3 guidelines of L+8 then this fall is considered a level 47 opponent based on the damage it does.
@30 ft. and 3d10 (16.5) that's about level 8-9
@50 ft. and 5d10 (27.5) that's about level 19-20
@70 ft. and 7d10 (39.5) that's about level 31-32
What I'm saying is I don't agree with the numbers from the DMG.

Finally, no player should ever come to you with "you could have fudged it". That's not something they get to decide, and it's one reason you should never discuss or admit to fudging at all IMO. Down the road if the player holds onto this "you could have fudged it" feeling and then thinks that you did fudge it for another player, now you have a bigger problem. It's a can of worms better left unopened. If asked, you don't fudge. Period. Even if you secretly do. It's a DMing tool for you alone and requires no input from your PC's.

One option is what I do. Roll all your dice in front of the players and NEVER fudge. This gets rid of the "blame game".

In fairness and referencing the previous discussion, the choice is stand and die or fall and potentially die. The PC never has a chance to escape or make that decision themselves - each of their turns is lost due to being dominated each time.

The person you were quoting was not talking about the fight with the Incubus, but the first death in the previous fight.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I'm a big supporter of the Three Clue Rule (i.e. for every piece of information the party needs there are at least 3 clues leading to it).

I'd love to read more about that rule -- is it your own idea? Can you provide a link to an article about it?

I'd like to point out that Riastlin and several other commentors on this thread are Level 1 or Level 2 ENWorld-ers. It's great to see such good comments from relatively new people! [I should say, I've actually been a member since 2000 -- it's just that I lost my login info and created a new user name as the lazy solution. Back then I went by "Eric Noah".][Not really.]

 

[DEFCON 1]

I'd love to read more about that rule -- is it your own idea? Can you provide a link to an article about it?

Here ya go...

THREE-CLUE RULE

 

[xXElaDriNDrizZztXx]

I could argue you're doing the exact same thing. You're metagaming assuming there must be a chance of survival staying on the roof. In reality, daemons are known to tear their victims to shreds and do horrific things to them. Even death is preferable to being outnumbered and captured by daemons.

So either way the character is dead. /thread at this point.

 

[Incendax]

I really wanted to wait until the player showed up before I posted again, but she has fallen ill and has not yet managed to take a look at this thread. I am still encouraging her to do so at her earliest convenience. In the meantime I will answer some questions.

Part of the skill challenge involved an Arcana check to determine information about the monster. The Sorcerer had a moderate success at this check and I read the name, description, and arcana entries for the incubus. I did not read their powers or saves. This was prior to any combat.

I do allow players to check rules if we suspect something is amiss, but at that particular moment neither of us did.

In the first death, the player went unconscious then regenerated back to health. The player fought enemies and went unconscious again then regenerated back to health. The player tried to chase a fleeing enemy that was away from the main fighting and had enough OA's happen that she went unconscious again.

In the second death, the player resisted dominate twice (I rolled two natural 1s against her) before she was ever successfully dominated. She saved against every dominate at the end of her turn but the monsters were lucky and regained their dominate so from the middle of the battle onward she never got her own action to attempt to save herself. The incubus always tried at least once per round to throw her off the cliff. The round she died involved four incubus and their actions were to Dominate + Claw + Claw + Bull Rush.

The battle was only avoidable by succeeding the skill challenge or doing some damn good Bluff/Intimidate/Diplomacy rolls. The party was in a demon infested castle with various factions that were fighting each other. They made a deal with an unsavory but narcissistic demon that exchanged one night of entertainment (non-sexual) to avoid a potentially dangerous battle. The ranger agreed to the deal, and the next day she returned apparently unharmed. A short while later they discovered that the ranger had been replaced by a demonic entity that had changed shape as the original but had no nefarious intentions whatsoever (the player was quite surprised). The original had been so 'conveniently' brought to the tower of the narcissistic demon's rival where the party had to battle/sneak their way to the top and liberate the original Ranger. Avoiding the battle would have meant abandoning the friend to the rival demon.

What the player meant about 'avoiding opportunities to hurt other players' was that one incubus on the ground with three characters took an opportunity attack to fly back up to the top of the tower where it's nest was instead of stay and fight. This incubus join the battle against the player who was still up in the tower and died. Another instance was when a second incubus at the at the base of the tower did not attack an unconscious player but charged a conscious player.

Did I miss any questions?

 

[LostSoul]

it was her turn to discuss her feelings on the game she explained to me that she felt I had singled out her character, ignored opportunities to hurt other characters, and should have fudged the second instance so she did not die.

Based on the fact that she thought you should have fudged the second instance, I think that you guys might have different ideas about what the game is about.

To my eye it sounds like you played the monsters as rational creatures, taking rational actions based on their abilities. This may not be what she wants out of the game!

I think that's the discussion you guys should have - what do you want out of the game? How should I make my decisions as DM? Should we be playing together? That sort of thing.

 

[NJC207]

I'm the PC

So, I'm the PC who has apparently started a raging thread fight among you guys. I would like to start by saying BS to my DM...I got the email this morning telling me about this thread's existence. So I've just now read through everyone's posts and I would like to straighten some things out.

First of all, some of you seem to think I hate the DM for daring to kill me. That's not true. I've played in games with him for about 2 years now. He is a fine DM, one of the best I've played with, and I enjoy his stories greatly. I count him as a personal friend. He has killed me before in other games, and it does not effect my view of him in the least. It is traditional for our group to have a "Favorite, Least Favorite" discussion after each game. We all use the information in this time to improve the game experience for all of us, discuss rules, and even make house rules. We tend to play long campaigns and develop detailed characters. Because of this, we always try to resurrect dead characters instead of creating new ones. I did comment in this time about dying twice in one session, as I found it very unusual.

The first time my character died was, I will admit, a stupid error on my part. I was surrounded and had regeneration 20, negated to 10 by ongoing damage. The fight had been slowly shifting from the deck of a ship to the water. I was late in inititive, and the other 3 PCs had already abandoned ship to chase the main villin into the water, leaving me on the deck with minions and deamons. I was ajacent to three minions, so I thought, who did a static 4 points of damage. I was planning to follow my group into the water. I could take the OAs and get an action against the villan in the water, or shift away, take a move action as a standard, and end my turn in the water. I decided to take the OAs. My error was this: a deamon that was hovering at 6 squares above me had dropped to one square--and thus adjacent. Two minions attacked and missed. The third attacked and hit for 4 damage. The Deamon rolled a 20, putting me at exactly 36 neg...my bloodied is 33. So yeah, it was dumb of me. I completely take the blame for that death, and was willing to sit out the remainder of the game, as I thought I would.

The DM kindly allowed my group to make a deal with the devil...literally...and I was restored to life after only missing a couple hours of game time. I of course had the normal death penalty. We then made our way up the tower where we stumbled upon the incubui. We each made stealth checks individually in the order we were walking. Three of us successfully made it to the other side of the room. The fourth member of our party attracted their attention, and was immediately surrounded by them, forcing us into the fight, as we had to return to free her. This time, I was first in inititive, and the incubi were last. I remained free from dominate for the majority of the encounter. PCs at inititive 2 and 3 were the first to be thrown over the wall, and their dominators went with them, leaving 2 PCs and three incubi in the room. PC 4 was then dominated and also thrown over the wall on the Incubus' turn. At the start of my turn, I was alone in the room with 2 incubi. I'm not a complete idiot: I ran. I made it across the room and to the door. My next turn would have taken me down the stairs and back to my allies. It was at this juncture I was first dominated, and forced to walk back into the room.

The next three rounds have been beat to death, so I will not reiterate them. But I did try to escape. The thought of purposely failing my save never occured to me. I knew the incubi worked on recharge, and I was at near full heath. I saved vs the first dominate, and knew the second had not recharged yet. I thought I would have a round to escape, then the third arrived and dominated. Once again, the other one did not recharge, so when I saved, I thought I would have time to escape or heal. Then the fourth appeared, resulting in my death. My feeling singled out did not start until then. The fourth took an OA in order to reach me. The third abandoned a fallen PC and passed 2 other PCs to reach me. I felt that that single point could have been played out better, as I had already sat out half of the current game.

We have a house rule when horrible things happen called "One Fudge Per Game." The DM suggests it when things go in a horrible direction, and the group as a whole votes on weather the occasion is worthy of it. I felt the second death of the same character in the same session was worthy of it, but it was not mentioned. I do not regret dying, or failing the encounter. I regret that I had to sit out half of a session, and this week, when we play again, I will have to sit out the first half of it while my PC's fate is decided. We have a saying in our group, "the only unfun way to play is not to play at all." So of course when asked what the low part of the session was for me, I had to say, "Not getting to play." I do not hold my DM accountable for my deaths, I know I could have played it better, especially in the first case. He is my friend and my favorite DM, and that has not changed. But I feel that he can learn that sometimes, you can bend the rules if it means your PCs can play, and therefore, enjoy the game.

 

[holywhitetrash]

you seem like a dick
so in the first encounter you punished a pc because you didn't know the rules, instead of just beating on someone else
and in the second encounter you punished the pc because they were unlucky enough to be lucky.
i guess the first time could be ignored but knocking a pc unconscious and then throwing them off a cliff is completely you being a prick
and since i doubt she had control of her turns she couldn't even jump off the ledge herself

Admin here. I probably don't have to tell people why this post is a problem. Whether you agree or disagree with what other people post here, you need to not sound like a jerk when you discuss it with them. That means being polite instead of accusing, ranting or being insulting. ` PCat

 

[Incendax]

So, I'm the PC who has apparently started a raging thread fight among you guys. I would like to start by saying BS to my DM...I got the email this morning telling me about this thread's existence. So I've just now read through everyone's posts and I would like to straighten some things out.

Hey now! I've been trying to send you an e-mail for a couple of days now, and you were sick and unable to attend the Thursday game.

A few points of clarification, though. At no point did an Incubus run past two other PCs to attack you. Also, you ran towards the stairs that led up and towards further danger, not the stairs that lead back down. I suspect this was just a misunderstanding though.

 

[Aegeri]

But I did try to escape. The thought of purposely failing my save never occured to me.

You don't actually have to take a save when being pushed or other forced movement into a hazard, drop or similar. Out of curiosity, if you were aware you didn't have to take the saving throw would you have just fallen off while on a higher amount of HP earlier before the other creatures arrived?