"I know the spell to solve the problem!"

[Elf Witch]

As a general rule, utility without cost is an issue.

In 3.5e this comes because you have cheap wands and scrolls (or even just 'I leave my low level slots free, so I can solve any problem with 10 minutes memorisation time').

There are systems where wizards have limitless utility, and they still work, simply by imposing a cost on that utility (shadowrun charges meaningful character resources for spells and then each spell has the potential to cripple it's caster, mage allows on-the-spot creation of spells, but threatens the caster with paradox etc). Sure the wizard could cast knock, but it might kill him to do so.

4e has issues because rituals are so specific and ineffective that they usually end up without a niche where one might use them. They tend not to be able to do anything that a skill couldn't do instead, but they cost a lot of money and take a lot of time. It sort of swings the other way, to a place where magic is never used for utility and is instead reserved for killing stuff.

I think Shadowrun does magic best. It is my favorite system for it. I like the idea of magic taking a physical toll on the caster.

But Shadowrun mages have a better ability to do other things if they can no longer cast magic that does not make them feel useless. Which is an important thing considering that if you fail to resist drain you may only be able to cast one spell for the run. The mage I played was a fantastic shot with pistols and always had one or two elementals bound for service.

But as much as I like it I don't see it working as well as well for DnD. Casting one or two spells then being able to only fire crossbolts or if you feel daring wade into melee with your staff is going to make playing a wizard not very much fun unless you have other things for them to do.

I think one of the best fixes is to make scrolls and wands more expensive the downside is that would also make healing wands more expensive and force the clerics back into being more of a band aid for the party. Which makes a lot of people not want to play them.

 

[pemerton]

4e has issues because rituals are so specific and ineffective that they usually end up without a niche where one might use them. They tend not to be able to do anything that a skill couldn't do instead, but they cost a lot of money and take a lot of time. It sort of swings the other way, to a place where magic is never used for utility and is instead reserved for killing stuff.

I just wanted to say: rituals see quite a bit of use in my 4e game, and powers are also used outside of combat (eg Twist of Space was used to rescue a NPC who had been trapped inside a mirror by a mad wizard).

 

[Gentlegamer]

The bug in D&D was the invention of the thief class.

 

[Walking Dad]

I just wanted to say: rituals see quite a bit of use in my 4e game, and powers are also used outside of combat (eg Twist of Space was used to rescue a NPC who had been trapped inside a mirror by a mad wizard).

I have also seen them in use. The designers even stopped publishing new ones because they were to cheap at higher levels.
Just because one group doesn't bother to use them makes this universal. I have seen my share of 3.5 groups with wizards who only blasted and the cleric only used cure spells.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I just wanted to say: rituals see quite a bit of use in my 4e game

I'd be quite interested to know which ones? We have seen a tiny amount of use in our games, but it's pretty few and far between. There just almost always seems to be a better option.

, and powers are also used outside of combat (eg Twist of Space was used to rescue a NPC who had been trapped inside a mirror by a mad wizard).

I always find the main issue with this is that powers have a damage expression, and NPCS that you don't know for a fact are combat-ready (especially hapless ones) tend to be minions, which puts a dampener on that pretty quick.

That might be more due to the fact that we're playing through official modules though.

 

[pemerton]

[MENTION=5890]Saeviomagy[/MENTION]:

On Twist of Space and damage: set phasers to stun (as per the death and dying rules) - then your minion NPC faints from the stress of teleportation, but recovers in short order!

On rituals: Object Reading sees a lot of use; Comprehend Languages and Animal Messenger see a bit of use; Make Whole has been used once or twice; Knock has been used once; Delay and Remove Affliction see use; Consult Mystic Sages has been used, although only once or twice (the PCs are early paragon, so it's still quite expensive); Eye and Alarm and Undead Ward have both been used; Wizard's Curtain was used when the PCs wanted to set up a concealed watch on a market square; Purify Water was used to cleanse a spring of a water weird.

There is one ritualist in the party (the wizard) and I would say ritual use averages one per two sessions, but with the rate of usage growing as the cost of low level rituals (especially Object Reading) becomes less significant relative to total party assets.

Most of the rituals that the wizard has in his book have been placed by me as treasure, and I also place quite a few components as treasure. I think this helps encourage usage, although the player of the wizard is happy to spend his PC's money on components also.

I'm sure that the ritual rules could be better - I think the "balance by expenditure" approach has the problem of being a bit expensive at low levels, whilst becoming just irritating book keeping at higher levels - but I find that they more-or-less do the job that I want them to do, namely, give the wizard some mechanical outlet for being a "mysterious figure of magic".

 

[Balesir]

I'm with [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] on rituals, and I would add that Transfer Enchantment is golden to our group, and Travellers' Camoflage, Magic Circle and the one to use Teleportals (which I can't remember the name of) have also been used.

Edit: and enchant Item, of course!

 

[Balesir]

"Asian escort" spam reported.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

awwww