I know they never would, but...

[Rechan]

IMHO they're borderline broken in 3.5e, but I find it acceptable because they're cool.

Cheers, -- N

You're joking, right?

I mean, I understand your argument on paper. But in actuality it's just... no. It's like whirlwind attack. It LOOKS good, but just isn't a very useful option nine times out of ten.

For one thing, daggers have a 10ft range increment. You have to get right up into something's face to throw them, and thus this puts you at a real disadvantage because throwing weapons incurs AoOs.

 

[Nifft]

You're joking, right?

I mean, I understand your argument on paper. But in actuality it's just... no. For one thing, daggers have a 10ft range increment. You have to get right up into something's face to throw them, and thus this puts you at a real disadvantage because throwing weapons incurs AoOs.

Nah, I'm serious. Daggers are better than a Simple weapon deserves to be. For range, consider:
- Far Shot
- Distance special ability (+ Returning, of course)
- Suck it up and eat the -2 penalty for throwing 20 ft.

... but really, the ranged ability is only vital to get access to Seeking, which negates miss chance. So you always get your Sneak Attack damage, even against Displacer Beasts, who don't expect it.

The crit range, damage types, and special features are more than a lot of Martial weapons get. (You will need some source of extra damage to take advantage of that crit range, though. Favored Enemy bonus, Weapon Specialization, the Collision property from XPH are all good. Melee Weapon Mastery or Ranged Weapon Mastery also good. Brutal Throw is great.)

I love daggers.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Elemmakil]

You're joking, right?

I mean, I understand your argument on paper. But in actuality it's just... no. It's like whirlwind attack. It LOOKS good, but just isn't a very useful option nine times out of ten.

For one thing, daggers have a 10ft range increment. You have to get right up into something's face to throw them, and thus this puts you at a real disadvantage because throwing weapons incurs AoOs.

Daggers aren't necessarily the best throwing weapon in any given build, but they work in all builds and everyone can use them. They don't completely dominate in their area in the same way that the spiked chain does in battlefield control, but they are still generally the best option for throwing weapons. Plus, they're one of the most versatile weapons around. Seriously, most of my martial characters have a dagger as a backup weapon, and most throwers I've seen focus exclusively on daggers.

-Elemmakil

 

[AffableVagrant]

Nah, I'm serious. Daggers are better than a Simple weapon deserves to be. For range, consider:
- Far Shot
- Distance special ability (+ Returning, of course)
- Suck it up and eat the -2 penalty for throwing 20 ft.

... but really, the ranged ability is only vital to get access to Seeking, which negates miss chance. So you always get your Sneak Attack damage, even against Displacer Beasts, who don't expect it.
Cheers, -- N

...and yet, you're still doing 1d4 damage. And you've invested at least a +3 bonus into just making it hit concealed things and come back to do it next round. And you've spent several feats to do all this marginally well. You're not making a believer of me.

How about you post some min/maxed guy at some moderate level so we can see what he can do when he's a dagger master.

 

[Rechan]

You also fall into the issue that it's a real feat monster to pull it off. If you're going with ranged, you're basically going to have to be a fighter to accommodate all the feat necessities:

Point Blank, Precise, Rapid shot, Weapon specialization (because you need that damage), and so on. Another for TWF.

 

[WhatGravitas]

...and yet, you're still doing 1d4 damage. And you've invested at least a +3 bonus into just making it hit concealed things and come back to do it next round. And you've spent several feats to do all this marginally well. You're not making a believer of me.

In D&D v3.5, the base damage doesn't matter much after some levels. The damage bonus you can rack up with sneak attacks is far more important than the ~2 damage, a longsword deals more. Even a greatsword only deals ~4.5 damage more per hit.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Nifft]

How about you post some min/maxed guy at some moderate level so we can see what he can do when he's a dagger master.

Let's spawn a separate thread in ... D&D Rules.

See y'all there.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Rechan]

In D&D v3.5, the base damage doesn't matter much after some levels. The damage bonus you can rack up with sneak attacks is far more important than the ~2 damage, a longsword deals more. Even a greatsword only deals ~4.5 damage more per hit.

Except that you can only use a ranged weapon to deal SA damage when they are denied their dex bonus. If you're going to rely on flanking and melee to get those SAs, then you don't need to waste all those feats on throwing.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Except that you can only use a ranged weapon to deal SA damage when they are denied their dex bonus. If you're going to rely on flanking and melee to get those SAs, then you don't need to waste all those feats on throwing.

Greater Invisibility, much? In my experience, at least, rogues naturally gravitate to that spell and 1) always want it, 2) get scrolls/wands with that, thanks to UMD.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Rechan]

Greater Invisibility, much? In my experience, at least, rogues naturally gravitate to that spell and 1) always want it, 2) get scrolls/wands with that, thanks to UMD.

That's great... what about until you get it?

If you're playing from level one, uh, that's a lot of going 'Dont' worry guys, You'll see all these paper cuts pay off in the future'.