D&D 4E I love 5E, but lately I miss 4E's monsters

[dave2008]

I love 5E, but lately I find myself missing some aspects of 4E's monster design. I find this particularly true when I'm looking at 5E's dragons; we've gone back to the days when the main difference between a Red and a Blue is the type of breath weapon they use. OTOH, in 4E (especially later on) each type of dragon had different abilities suited to entirely different types of tactics; Reds were tough front-line fighters, while Blues were like highly-mobile artillery.

(Full disclosure: I've considered simply running 4E again, and I'm not interested. The player-side mechanics just don't scratch the same itch that 5E's do, and ever-inflating-math got old fast. I don't want to go all the way back to 2010; I just miss the monster designs.)

Does anybody else ever feel like 5E slid "backwards" into boring, homogeneous monster design? Aside from converting everything myself, does anyone have suggestions about "4E-ifying" 5E's monsters?

Dragons are a bit of bad example as they provide lair actions and a spell casting option in the MM. But I get your point. You might be interested in the hardcore monster manual I'm working on in this tread: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?519681-5e-AD-amp-D-Monster-Manual

I am pretty much doing exactly what you want. The ogres I just posted are 5e updates of the 4e Ogre Savage, Skrimisher & War Hulk. It is just in its infancy, but eventual it will be a great resource (I hope), especially if I can get some people to help out.

 

[Edwin Suijkerbuijk]

I love 5E, but lately I find myself missing some aspects of 4E's monster design. I find this particularly true when I'm looking at 5E's dragons; we've gone back to the days when the main difference between a Red and a Blue is the type of breath weapon they use. OTOH, in 4E (especially later on) each type of dragon had different abilities suited to entirely different types of tactics; Reds were tough front-line fighters, while Blues were like highly-mobile artillery.

(Full disclosure: I've considered simply running 4E again, and I'm not interested. The player-side mechanics just don't scratch the same itch that 5E's do, and ever-inflating-math got old fast. I don't want to go all the way back to 2010; I just miss the monster designs.)

Does anybody else ever feel like 5E slid "backwards" into boring, homogeneous monster design? Aside from converting everything myself, does anyone have suggestions about "4E-ifying" 5E's monsters?

I wonder how hard it is to convert a 4th edition monster and run it trough the 5th Cr calculator.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I wonder how hard it is to convert a 4th edition monster and run it trough the 5th Cr calculator.

Not too terribly hard if you use the DM's Guidelines

4e kobold kirmisher:
HP: 27
AC: 15
Attack: +6, 1d8dmg
Special: combat advantage, mob attack, shifty, trap sense.


So by HP, you've got a CR 1/8. Attack bonus and AC is CR 5, damage is CR 1/4 (on average). .125 + .25 +5 +5 = 10.375 (divided by 4 for 4 categories) = 2.59. I'd round everything down, so 2.

Just an example, not to be used for a literal conversion. Admittedly, a lot of it will probably be arbitrary as to what feels right. For example, knowing what I know about CRs, I would always round down, rather than up.

 

[Edwin Suijkerbuijk]

lets see what happesn if I give it a quick attempt with a adult blur dragon from 4th edition.

sts:23 dex:16 con:19 int:13 wis:14 cha:14

Initiative +3
Hp: 655
AC 24 proficient in con saves. (+6 prof bonus)
Resist lightning
speed 40 fly 50
Action surge as fighter ability

Attacks
multi attack the dragon makes 1 gore and 2 claw attacks.
Gore reach 10 +12 vs ac 1d8+6 +1d6 lightning damage and the target is pushes 5 feet and knocked prone.
Claw reach 10 +10 vs ac 1d6+6

Breath weapon recharge on 5 and 6
range 30 feet 3 targets within 30 feet the initial target +2 other targets within 15 feet of the first target
dex save Dc 20 2d12+10 lightning damage half damage ona sucesfull save.

The first time the dragon is reduced below half Hp (327) it's breatweapon recharges and the dragon can use it imidiately as a reaction.

Frightful presence once per short rest.
al enemies within 25 feet of the dragon DC20 will save ona failed save thew targets are stunned untill the end of the dragons next turn.

lightning burst.
20 feet radius within 100 feet 3d6+4 lightning damage Dc 20 refex save half damage on a sucessfull save.

655 HP cr 26 +2 for ac 25 = Defensive Cr 28
most damage is caused with the Gore claw claw attack taking this attack 4 times in 3 rounds for action surge makes a avarage damage of 37 per round
making it cr 5 +3 for the +12 attack bonus maakes ofensive CR 8

Avarage Cr : 18

 

[CapnZapp]

But to answer the overall point, the DMs Guild is full of stuff that addresses this, like Monstrous Leaders, where you add feats, traits, and abilities to monster stat blocks.

It could be that he would have preferred that the raw of the edition was like this, in which case suggesting 3PP doesn't really help.

 

[CapnZapp]

I prefer 5e's combat, sure. But i definitely prefer 4e's monster design. Partly for the complexity (having stat blocks for five different types of level-appropriate goblins makes for some very interesting encounter design philosophies) but mostly, if I'm being honest, for their simplicity. My eyes roll out of my head every time I see an enemy stat block that contains the feature Spellcasting. Who has time for that? If I'm designing a spell-casting enemy and I assign them more than three-four spells (or really any kind of out-of-combat utility magic) it is because they are a major villain and I need to know what they're capable of in reaction to the PC's. But her dime-a-dozen necromancer goons? A cold-based cantrip, and two-three recharge-based higher level spells (a debuff, raising some skeletons, maybe a area attack) are all they really need.

Yes, it's a huge letdown.

Each creature with spells should have at least three spells detailed like actions right there in the stat block, for convenience. Not the complete spell text, but enough to adjucate casting it.

Just throwing a bunch of spells at us, without even marking which spells are concentration, is borderline unusable.

 

[Caliban]

I also find that the vanilla 5e monsters are a little boring and underpowered, especially if you are using feats in the game.

However, I try to view it as a positive - I have no qualms about adding a feat or class ability to the monsters when I'm preparing the encounter, or even during the encounter in order to spice things up. Since the players have extra power due to feats, the monsters can get a bump without me changing their CR.

 

[Cyvris]

Honestly, I currently DM 5e with the 4e PHBs and Sly Flourish's DM math cheat sheet. I flip to the monsters I want in the 4e monster manual, lift their abilities wholesale, and then find the CR level I want for everything else. It's quick, easy, flexible, and lets me toss in interesting monsters without too much hassle.

Sure, things like creatures getting advantage if an ally is within 5 ft probably bust CR over their knee, but it certainly makes for some dynamic combat scenarios. Thorn Whip's pull or Eldritch Blast's push effect shine in moments like this, making it so players have to play smart to win.

 

[cbwjm]

Have you watched Matt Colville's YouTube episode about using 4E monsters in 5E? While he doesn't make specific statblocks or anything, he does talk about the process of doing what you want, and what works and what you can expect if you try it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoELQ7px9ws

Never heard of this guy before now, the video was quite entertaining with some good ideas.

 

[Teemu]

Not to pick on you directly, but I've seen this comparison a lot (4e dragons and 5e dragons), and it throws me off.

In 4e, the only difference between abilities between, say, an ancient blue and ancient green is:

Blue: Thunderclap, lightning burst
Green: Luring Glare, Mind Poison

So that's 2 things each has no other dragon does

In 5e, each dragon has three unique things to it's species. Granted, that's lair actions, but most dragons who are worth their salt would be fighting in their lairs whenever possible. They didn't get to be ancient by being dumb. And of course, I'm only talking about mechanical things, dragon types have different personalities, so I would run them completely different depending on what that dragon typically acts like.

There are more differences between an ancient blue and an ancient green in 4e.

Blue: gore (push and prone), wingclap, breath weapon is a ranged single target attack, thunderclap, lightning burst
Green: lashing tail aura, bite (ongoing poison damage), tail sweep, luring glare, mind poison

And the dragons from Monster Vault are even more different.

Elder blue: large lightning aura, instinctive lightning, gore, lightning burst, thunderclap, breath weapon dazes, wing blackblast
Elder green: small poison aura, instinctive flyby, bite poisons, clawing allows free movement, breath weapon slows and poisons, flyby attack, luring glare, cunning glance

Moreover, the dragons of course have different personalities and different favored terrain types, just like in 5e and other editions.