I love the Feydark.

[Logan_Bonner]

Well, yes - but that doesn't mean removing all symmetry. Given that the Feywild and Shadowfell, from the start, were designed as reflections of the mortal world... I don't see how them having... reflections of the mortal world... is an issue.

Shadowdark could use a better name, though.

Yeah, you'll notice there's not Astraldark or Element-o-dark.

 

[JPL]

"Religion is a trick you play on the deities to make them give you things." Awesome.

Not so awesome: Feydark? Seriously? And Shadowdark? I thought we were getting away from 'pointless symmetry'.

Apparently not. And yeah, we've known about them for a while, but they're not any less stupid to me now than they were then. The old alignments and cosmology apparently sucked because of 'pointless symmetry'(They didn't), but now we've got... Pointless symmetry. With really bad names. Whoops.

And isn't the Feywild generally supposed to be 'the real world but turned up to 11!'? Why is the Feydark smaller and less grimdarkbad then? Sounds more like they turned it down to 2 when it was at 6. I'd expect a bigger, more badass hellpit bursting with all kinds of strange stuff that makes the normal depths of the underdark seem like a picnic, not 'well it's smaller and kind of in the middle for difficulty'.

I like the concepts, not the names. Similarly, I like good ideas, whether they are inspired by a need for symmetry or not.

From a design standpoint, the decision was made to make the Shadowdark and Feywild geared toward lower-level characters --- your first taste of planar travel --- but I don't think it's hard work to direct PCs to the particularly badass hellpit areas of these planes.

And I like the Feydark because to me, it's "bursting with all kinds of strange stuff" with a distinctive flavor --- Labyrinth meets Guillermo del Toro. I don't care if it's infinite or just mighty big.

And there are formorian lords and the guys who power all those feylocks, and that's probably enough badassery for my tastes. I don't think an epic level Feydark campaign turned up to 11 would be any problem.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

Yeah, you'll notice there's not Astraldark or Element-o-dark.

Personally, I think we need to find a new naming convention to beat into the ground. My group was never fond of "Underdark" anyway; it isn't under the dark, it's in the dark. It's really the Underlight, if anything. But that seemed like a bit colonialistic of us, so maybe it was just the Dark and where we came from was the Overdark -- even though following the existing nomenclature it would be called the Overlight. But then it all seems overly elaborate and maybe we should just call them the Light and the Dark. Except when it's night, making it the Dark and the Alsodark.

These are the conversations that happen when you traipse around in elaborate subterranean caves for too long.

 

[EroGaki]

"Religion is a trick you play on the deities to make them give you things." Awesome.

Not so awesome: Feydark? Seriously? And Shadowdark? I thought we were getting away from 'pointless symmetry'.

Apparently not. And yeah, we've known about them for a while, but they're not any less stupid to me now than they were then. The old alignments and cosmology apparently sucked because of 'pointless symmetry'(They didn't), but now we've got... Pointless symmetry. With really bad names. Whoops.

And isn't the Feywild generally supposed to be 'the real world but turned up to 11!'? Why is the Feydark smaller and less grimdarkbad then? Sounds more like they turned it down to 2 when it was at 6. I'd expect a bigger, more badass hellpit bursting with all kinds of strange stuff that makes the normal depths of the underdark seem like a picnic, not 'well it's smaller and kind of in the middle for difficulty'.

Agreed. The naming conventions have long been a source of vexation in our group. We finally regressed back to the previous titles (Shadow plane, Astral plane, etc).

 

[JPL]

Yeah, you'll notice there's not Astraldark or Element-o-dark.

See, this to me is what is meant by "pointless symmetry":

* Paraelemental Plane of Ooze (between Earth and Water)
* Paraelemental Plane of Ice (between Water and Air)
* Paraelemental Plane of Smoke (between Air and Fire)
* Paraelemental Plane of Magma (between Fire and Earth).
* Quasielemental Plane of Mineral (between Earth and Positive Energy)
* Quasielemental Plane of Dust (between Earth and Negative Energy)
* Quasielemental Plane of Radiance (between Fire and Positive Energy)
* Quasielemental Plane of Ash (between Fire and Negative Energy)
* Quasielemental Plane of Lightning (between Air and Positive Energy)
* Quasielemental Plane of Vacuum (between Air and Negative Energy)
* Quasielemental Plane of Steam (between Water and Positive Energy)
* Quasielemental Plane of Salt (between Water and Negative Energy)

And as I recall, they were all infinite. An infinite plane of vacuum . . . that's a whole lot of sucking.

Few if any of these planes had any memorable monsters, adventures, or locations associated with them. Mostly, they had the local variety of memphit, and some notes about how your character suffocates / explodes / burns to death within 1d10 rounds, absent powerful magic.

 

[avin]

That looks almost exactly like one of the levels of Star Wars: The Force Unleashed.

Have you been on Azjol Nerub or Old Kingdom in Wow?

 

[Beginning of the End]

Personally, I think we need to find a new naming convention to beat into the ground. My group was never fond of "Underdark" anyway; it isn't under the dark, it's in the dark.

When it was first discovered, it was referred to in the old tongues as "the Under and the Dark" (because it was under and it was dark). Language behaving the way that language often behaves, this was eventually elided into "the Underdark" (which remains both "under" and "dark").

 

[avin]

Few if any of these planes had any memorable monsters, adventures, or locations associated with them. Mostly, they had the local variety of memphit, and some notes about how your character suffocates / explodes / burns to death within 1d10 rounds, absent powerful magic.

Yeah, because less variation rocks on a RPG...

The Feydark is cool but making an universe without forbidden places where you suffocate and die makes no sense at all, unless the people playing like the "dungeon everywhere" philosophy, which is like the Vacuum Plane, IMO

 

[JPL]

Yeah, because less variation rocks on a RPG...

The Feydark is cool but making an universe without forbidden places where you suffocate and die makes no sense at all, unless the people playing like the "dungeon everywhere" philosophy, which is like the Vacuum Plane, IMO

To me, it's a question of providing useful tools for a cool game. As an example, I find that the 4th Edition Manual of the Planes meets that need better than the 1st Edition Manual of the Planes. MoP 1.0 has more "variation," I suppose --- more planes, certainly --- but for my purposes, it works better to have a few specific locations with more detail . . . here's a map of the City of Brass; here are how gnome politics work; here's a typical formorian lair.

In the old-school cosmology, either you had magic to overcome the environmental "suffocate and die" conditions (in which case they became irrelevant), or you just didn't go to those planes.

No reason the Plane of Salt couldn't be something as cool as the Feywild . . . but it wasn't, was it?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

In the old-school cosmology, either you had magic to overcome the environmental "suffocate and die" conditions (in which case they became irrelevant), or you just didn't go to those planes.

No reason the Plane of Salt couldn't be something as cool as the Feywild . . . but it wasn't, was it?

It wasn't, but that is not the issue. They don't need to be cool. But there could be places we can't go to or don't care to go.

From a pure game design point of view - the quasi-elemental plane of vacuum is useless. It serves no purpose during play. So off it goes. That's at least the 4E take. And I generally like that take.

Another opinion is simply - it is just some background fluff. It adds a detail to the world.
But is it "useful" fluff would? Being able or interested to go there is not the only qualifier for that. The sun is not a place to visit usually.
But can you use it in a story? Can you use it as part of a historical reference, like "The Great Archwizard Deben was the first to ever enter the Vacuum plane, which later proved his downfall - in his campaign against the Dragon Saxomirdosa, he regularly retreated there for his research. Saxomirdosa send him a curious gift through an agent - the eye of a beholder, frozen in time. The enchantment freezing the eye in time ended as soon as the Archwizard touched it, negating his magical protection against the hostile plane and killing him instantly."

Apparently, you can tell such a story. Though did it really require a vacuum plane? It didn't actually require any planes at all, the deep ocean or a magma sea would have been sufficient.

The question might be - too how many lengths do we go, how detailed do we get? If the quasielemental plane of Smoke has no more story relevance than a magma-sea, couldn't we just use the magma-sea if we need it and not bother detailing that plane in our cosmology? The magma-sea is even a given in our world!
Or maybe this is not the right question either. Maybe the question isdo th quasii-elemental plane of Smoke or Vacuum have their own story? The Feywild sure does. It has the stories of Eladrin, Feys. The Underdark has its drows. The Astral Sea has the gods and Hell. The Elemental Chaos has the Primordials and the Abyss.

Or another view might be very... "physical" thinking. How does the existence of the quasi-elemental plane of ooze affect the world? The sun has an obvious effect on it. The Feywild seems to have one. The 12(?) moons of Eberron seem to have an effect.
Something that has no observable effect on the world is the same as non-existing from this perspective.

Well, ultimately it's all a matter of preferences and opinion. I prefer a more focused cosmology - describe me the big, important parts of the universe, those with their own stories and that invite to create new stories.