D&D General "I make a perception check."

[GMforPowergamers]

As an aside that is one of the things I hate most about VTTs. I have not found one that let's the PCs map while simultaneously letting me drop in a battlemap when necessary.

yeah since going virtual I have found this as well... we CAN go all blacked out map and me only light little bits at a time, or we can go theater of the mind... but then players shareing that map is harder...

in general player notes are also harder because with everyone having a computer open (just to play) and some low attention span players could be asked to put away there phones in person, we can't tell if they are in teh tab of the game or not now

 

[Reynard]

"I'm trying to perceive what is around me."

Wait, are we starting the thread over?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Talking to a player out of game about behavior that doesn't fit the group is not dictating how characters are allowed to act. That player is being a disruption and it sounds like they handled it properly.

yeah it seems so odd in a thread about "players sometimes don't do things I like, and I explain how I like it" we ended up with a few "I punish them and make it so they don't have fun" but then got around to "why would you tell someone (as a player or dm) something isn't fun?"

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Not really. The magic words hoop is when the DM designs one single solution to a problem and refuses all solutions until the PCs say the magic words that are his envisioned solution. This is similar to what it's like to play an adventure game where traditionally every puzzle has some single solution that you have to do like paint the fish and then hang it from the neck of the goat.

yeah... imagine if a DM had the door to continue the dungeon behind a book case, didn't allow a general "I search the room" to find it and players didn't think to move the book case... depending on how many other things were in that room you could spend an entire 2-3 hour session "I look under the bed" "I lift the rug and look under it" "I move this painting" I move this other painting" "I move the third painting" "I open each draw top to bottom, take everything out and go through it, I then look for hidden levers pullies or false bottoms hidden parts in the dresser" "Maybe we should move the dresser, me and other player lift together and move it" then "Wait, I forgot the book case... I love in movies when it's the book case, I go one by one pulling out each book then putting it back" and god forbid they didn't keep track and someone says "Did we check under the rug?"

 

[tetrasodium]

now go back to slapping the queen... remember the player in the scenario (not my example) started by not knowing how to calm down the queen that was crying, but the DM pushed into trying something (aka describe your social interaction even if YOU the player would not have clue 1 how and your character was built around it)... so you went with something from a movie... but the movie was NOT the type of movie the DM wanted to use for the campaign, and it auto failed. This is the 'magic words' thing... and it just gets worse when talking social skills because if the player is not good at social things not only is it hard to describe BUT the game IS a social thing so they are already having trouble with it... That player did not read the DM or the room and under stand what was or was not going to fly... but that's just it the two inabilities overlap "I don't know how to calm a crying woman" and "I don't know what to say" both can be summed up as "I don't do well with speaking in social situations."
But that DM is punishing them when they wanted the escapism of imagining themselves as the confident cool charming person they know they are not in real life.

The gm is not punishing the player there. The gm's roke/job during the game is to make the world & everything in it other than the pcs run& do do in a believable way. "I slap the queen" is very often going to be wildly at odds with doing that in many games. Take a game like mine where high ranking nobles speak to commoners through an aid (and vice versa) while observing almost as an npc sitting at the table with the players with her own servant as a pseudopc.. Slapping the queen who won't even directly converse with you would be a Monumentally awful idea & having it play out any different would cause all kinds of troubles with worldbuilding dramatically in conflict.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Unless someone has that memory feat, they need to map as well. Or else they're probably getting lost in any dungeon of decent size.

back in 2e I saw a group (and ran from it even back then) that would not let 1 player out of game map the dungeon unless there character was doing it in game, BUT required you to in game have the secondary skill (I might be miss remembering the name we always used non weapon profs and this was an option instead in the PHB) BUT... you had to roll on a chart to get the skill randomly.

So this DM had a map (a very complex one) and he would kick you out if he caught you drawing an out of game map... and had just when I came in as a new player was told about the (evil wrong bad) player who was just kicked out because he thought writing notes "X room first went left then right" to 'get around having a character map' I only played 2 sessions then said I couldn't keep makeing it.

 

[delericho]

Wait, are we starting the thread over?

More or less. It's the problem with the DM asking "but what are you actually doing?" - the last time I asked that very question, my player simply reframed the question as I stated. And while it is functionally equivalent to "I roll perception", it should also be a valid action declaration, what with to perceive being a verb.

The shorter version: I've concluded that calling the skill Perception was a mistake. It should have been something like Senses instead.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The gm is not punishing the player there.

yes they are but your missing the issue...

"I slap the queen" is very often going to be wildly at odds with doing that in many games.

yes... but notice the player didn't start with "I slap the queen" they started by explaining the character would have an idea how to calm her and he himself did not.
The DM told him he had to declare something
The player explained not just WHAT to do but WHY he is under the mistaken idea that it should work.

having it play out any different would cause all kinds of troubles with worldbuilding dramatically in conflict.

right but you can pause game and talk OUT of game about the fact that the movie he is taking from is not the right feel or genre (and might be a super bad idea in any setting) instead of forceing the player to figure out what his character most likely knows

 

[GMforPowergamers]

The shorter version: I've concluded that calling the skill Perception was a mistake. It should have been something like Senses instead.

most likely next edition there will be a new name for several skills

 

[Reynard]

More or less. It's the problem with the DM asking "but what are you actually doing?" - the last time I asked that very question, my player simply reframed the question as I stated. And while it is functionally equivalent to "I roll perception", it should also be a valid action declaration, what with to perceive being a verb.

The shorter version: I've concluded that calling the skill Perception was a mistake. It should have been something like Senses instead.

Remember, my initial complaint was that the players make a declaration and throw dice unprompted. THAT is the problem, not players wanting to use the skill listed on their character sheet. "I want to perceive my surroundings" is vague and probably needs some interrogation in order to figure out important elements such as positioning, but it isn't wrong. "I roll perception! ::clatter::" is the wrong way to do it.