D&D General "I make a perception check."

[GMforPowergamers]

I'm not basing the difficulty off how charming the player is. I don't care how charming or not the player is. I need to know what the argument being made to the king is in order to adjudicate the outcome.

except that argument IS HOW PERSONABLE the player is...

if you don't know what to say without pissing someone off IRL you most likely are going to when asked for details piss off the king...even if your character would not

This isn't a CRPG with 3 choices, 2 of which don't matter. It is an RPG. I expect that players in an RPG are going to act through their characters. Not with funny voices or in character speeches or any of that -- I don't even do that for NPCs half the time. But it is not an RPG if the king is just a diplomacy check without any context or input from the player.

i don't understand what is wrong with him being a DC for a cha skill... if that is what the players want?

I am honestly having trouble imagining what this even looks like with a blind diplomacy check being the deciding factor. Did the party meet an NPC with a glowing exclamation point over their head that said, "Go to the king and convince him to reduce the turnip taxes!" and then the party went to the throne room and rolls to see if they beat a 15 to reduce the turnip taxes?

okay then let me walk you through one...

there is a HUGE war coming ( I mean planar in scope) and the players need (I guess want) the prince to convince the regnant to help them. They have interacted with Prince Ken a dozen times (mostly friendly although at least once not). If they remember every detail I have given them they will know the perfect things to say to get him (hit his ego a bit, then praise him) but the guy that take the best notes isn't here this week...

so we have Ross the 30ish cha maxed ranks in like 2 or 3 cha skills and a feat that makes him persuasive come up to the prince. ANd he lays out "Look, the slime men are coming" (no the name of the bad guys isn't slime men but my PCs keep calling them that. "We need your help. Can you convince the regent to mobilize your armies and attack when we need it"
Prince Ken thinks it over and says "Whats in it for me?"
now out of game I think that is a perfect soft ball right over the plate for Ross to hit out of the park... I mean this is easy channel your inner 'the tick' and say something to the effect of 'i don't want earth destroyed, it's were I keep my stuff'
Ross chokes. he studders and says "Um, I don't know" then says "Hey out of game can I just make a diplomacy check?"
I in my head set a dc and he rolls and makes it or not... it doesn't matter what it is or isn't he says cause his character knocks it out of the park.


I said it earlier about fadeing to black... basicly we just "Yadda yaddaed" the part we didn't want to play and got on to the part we did.

 

[Reynard]

except that argument IS HOW PERSONABLE the player is...

No, it doesn't. Remember I said the player whose character is doing the actiuon is not the only one that can chime in here.

if you don't know what to say without pissing someone off IRL you most likely are going to when asked for details piss off the king...even if your character would not

I honestly don't know what to do with a person who has that poor of social skills but wants to play the Face.

i don't understand what is wrong with him being a DC for a cha skill... if that is what the players want?

okay then let me walk you through one...

there is a HUGE war coming ( I mean planar in scope) and the players need (I guess want) the prince to convince the regnant to help them. They have interacted with Prince Ken a dozen times (mostly friendly although at least once not). If they remember every detail I have given them they will know the perfect things to say to get him (hit his ego a bit, then praise him) but the guy that take the best notes isn't here this week...

so we have Ross the 30ish cha maxed ranks in like 2 or 3 cha skills and a feat that makes him persuasive come up to the prince. ANd he lays out "Look, the slime men are coming" (no the name of the bad guys isn't slime men but my PCs keep calling them that. "We need your help. Can you convince the regent to mobilize your armies and attack when we need it"
Prince Ken thinks it over and says "Whats in it for me?"
now out of game I think that is a perfect soft ball right over the plate for Ross to hit out of the park... I mean this is easy channel your inner 'the tick' and say something to the effect of 'i don't want earth destroyed, it's were I keep my stuff'
Ross chokes. he studders and says "Um, I don't know" then says "Hey out of game can I just make a diplomacy check?"
I in my head set a dc and he rolls and makes it or not... it doesn't matter what it is or isn't he says cause his character knocks it out of the park.


I said it earlier about fadeing to black... basicly we just "Yadda yaddaed" the part we didn't want to play and got on to the part we did.

This example is really weird to me because it is exactly what I have been asking for this whole time -- except, weirdly at the end -- the player wants to make a roll instead of just asking his fellow players think the NPC might want.

If that happened in a game I ran, and the other players were equally dumbfounded, I would remind them of something they know about the Prince, his motives, goals and the like. I would help. It seems super counterproductive to hinge this otherwise really cool scene on a diplomacy check to see if the PC can remember something.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

• "can I arcana that"
  • nothing is established. As GM I don't want to write your PC's backstory whole cloth & have no tools that can be used to force you into sticking to it rather than discarding it any time it becomes inconvenient for it to not be something else.

nobody (that I know of) is asking to write there background... maybe they already did maybe they don't do backgrounds... either way doesn't matter at some point in there life they learned about the arcane skill things... they are asking if that knowledge (no matter how they came upon it) covers this.

if they apprenticed with a master
if they went to a wizard school
if the did both
heck if 5 minutes before game 1 they stepped in a strange circle and an ancient magic item downloaded spell casting and arcane lore into them
I bet i could come up with a few more but you get the point

the question is 'can they know this' they have this trait on there sheet (arcane as a skill) and they are trying to leverage that for the information.

"Can I arcana that?" gives you everything you need.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

No, it doesn't. Remember I said the player whose character is doing the actiuon is not the only one that can chime in here.

yes and I atleast appretiate we can team work it out of game

I honestly don't know what to do with a person who has that poor of social skills but wants to play the Face.

let them roll dice?

This example is really weird to me because it is exactly what I have been asking for this whole time -- except, weirdly at the end -- the player wants to make a roll instead of just asking his fellow players think the NPC might want.

well in that case the other 2 PCs were not much help and 2 were not there (including the 1 that would have gone back in his note book and given like 100 suggestions)

If that happened in a game I ran, and the other players were equally dumbfounded, I would remind them of something they know about the Prince, his motives, goals and the like.

I can see that too.

I would help. It seems super counterproductive to hinge this otherwise really cool scene on a diplomacy check to see if the PC can remember something.

see the thing is that once the player is stumped I no longer think it IS a really cool scene... its now a bit of a slump and somthing that is not adding fun... the diplomacy check will allow for us to move past it to the next scene were I hope we will not stall like we just did

 

[tetrasodium]

nobody (that I know of) is asking to write there background... maybe they already did maybe they don't do backgrounds... either way doesn't matter at some point in there life they learned about the arcane skill things... they are asking if that knowledge (no matter how they came upon it) covers this.

if they apprenticed with a master
if they went to a wizard school
if the did both
heck if 5 minutes before game 1 they stepped in a strange circle and an ancient magic item downloaded spell casting and arcane lore into them
I bet i could come up with a few more but you get the point

the question is 'can they know this' they have this trait on there sheet (arcane as a skill) and they are trying to leverage that for the information.

"Can I arcana that?" gives you everything you need.

I prefer more of a retroactive backstory building than a prewritten thing but if the backstory remains entirely quantum it becomes easy to use that to basically cheat.

Spoiler: here's a good video on it

 

[Reynard]

yes and I atleast appretiate we can team work it out of game

let them roll dice?


well in that case the other 2 PCs were not much help and 2 were not there (including the 1 that would have gone back in his note book and given like 100 suggestions)

I can see that too.

see the thing is that once the player is stumped I no longer think it IS a really cool scene... its now a bit of a slump and somthing that is not adding fun... the diplomacy check will allow for us to move past it to the next scene were I hope we will not stall like we just did

If that is your goal, why call for the roll? I mean, what happens if they fumble it? I think every roll should be meaningful and I don't call for rolls that I don't intend to honor. And as a player, the last thing i want is to roll when it is unnecessary.

 

[Reynard]

I prefer more of a retroactive backstory building than a prewritten thing but if the backstory remains entirely quantum it becomes easy to use that to basically cheat.

Spoiler: here's a good video on it

Back story is over rated -- perhaps the most over rated thing in all of D&D (IMO obviously).

 

[Charlaquin]

nobody (that I know of) is asking to write there background... maybe they already did maybe they don't do backgrounds... either way doesn't matter at some point in there life they learned about the arcane skill things... they are asking if that knowledge (no matter how they came upon it) covers this.

if they apprenticed with a master
if they went to a wizard school
if the did both
heck if 5 minutes before game 1 they stepped in a strange circle and an ancient magic item downloaded spell casting and arcane lore into them
I bet i could come up with a few more but you get the point

So you can come up with where a character might have learned a thing.

the question is 'can they know this' they have this trait on there sheet (arcane as a skill) and they are trying to leverage that for the information.

That’s the question you’re asking. The question I’m asking is “what do you want to know and where might your character have learned it?”

"Can I arcana that?" gives you everything you need.

It gives you everything you need. It doesn’t give me everything I need. They’re both perfectly valid approaches to DMing.

 

[Maxperson]

Is the chest a mimic, because if not it is a total false equivalence. You make rolls when outcomes are uncertain. Outcomes are always uncertain in combat.

Where is this from?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

If that is your goal, why call for the roll?

i mean the scene no matter how long or short has a pretty binary (when broken into simple discuss terms) out comes... the prince helps or he doesn't...

I mean, what happens if they fumble it?

prince ken doesn't help same as if after he declaired your way...

I think every roll should be meaningful and I don't call for rolls that I don't intend to honor.

why wouldn't i honor the roll that wouls defeat the whole point of testing the character

And as a player, the last thing i want is to roll when it is unnecessary.

it wasn't, i don't know what make the roll more or less necessary by how the action is declaired