D&D General "I make a perception check."

[Mort]

I honestly don't know how to get you to understand that positioning matters (among other things), and that players don't just throw dice without being asked to.

For me "I search the door for traps..." And "I investigate the door..." Are synonymous in a game of 5e. Both convey they exact same request.

Now, I would ask that the player not roll for the check unless asked. Certainly not right after declaring their action. Mainly because, If all the players did that without being prompted, it could easily dissolve into a confusing, hard to follow mess.

 

[Reynard]

For me "I search the door for traps..." And "I investigate the door..." Are synonymous in a game of 5e. Both convey they exact same request.

Yeah, I am not talking about the difference between those things. "I investigate the door" is at least an invitation to discuss things happening in the fiction of the game. "I use Investigate ::clatter::" is not and THAT has been, since the beginning of this thread, my only contention.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

just like to us forcing someone to say "I check the door for traps" when they just said "I roll Investigate" clatter... seems like a weird hill to die on.

I don't know that I would refuse to say what you want... but when I default to saying something YOU don't like you will stop the flow of the game and try to get people to phrase it differently... and that seems weird.

I mean, it is part of the basic play loop right there in the How to Play section (PHB p6):

- - - - - - - -
2. The players describe what they want to do. Sometimes one player speaks for the whole party, saying, "We'll take the east door," for example. Other times, different adventurers do different things: one adventurer might search a treasure chest while a second examines an esoteric symbol engraved on a wall and a third keeps watch for monsters. The players don't need to take turns, but the DM listens to every player and decides how to resolve those actions.

Sometimes, resolving a task is easy. If an adventurer wants to walk across a room and open a door, the DM might just say that the door opens and describe what lies beyond. But the door might be locked, the floor might hide a deadly trap, or some other circumstance might make it challenging for an adventurer to complete a task. In those cases, the DM decides what happens, often relying on the roll of a die to determine the results of an action.
- - - - - - - -

And before that in the example of game play on page 5:

- - - - - - - -
Dungeon Master (DM): After passing through the craggy peaks, the road takes a sudden turn to the east and Castle Ravenloft towers before you. Crumbling towers of stone keep a silent watch over the approach. They look like abandoned guardhouses. Beyond these, a wide chasm gapes, disappearing into the deep fog below. A lowered drawbridge spans the chasm, leading to an arched entrance to the castle courtyard. The chains of the drawbridge creak in the wind, their rust-eaten iron straining with the weight. From atop the high strong walls, stone gargoyles stare at you from hollow sockets and grin hideously. A rotting wooden portcullis, green with growth, hangs in the entry tunnel. Beyond this, the main doors of Castle Ravenloft stand open, a rich warm light spilling into the courtyard.

Phillip (playing Gareth): I want to look at the gargoyles. I have a feeling they're not just statues.

Amy (playing Riva): The drawbridge looks precarious? I want to see how sturdy it is. Do I think we can cross it, or is it going to collapse under our weight?

Dungeon Master (DM): OK, one at a time. Phillip, you're looking at the gargoyles?

Phillip: Yeah. Is there any hint they might be creatures and not decorations?

DM: Make an Intelligence check.

Phillip: Does my Investigation skill apply?

DM: Sure!

Phillip (rolling a d20): Ugh. Seven.

DM: They look like decorations to you. And Amy, Riva is checking out the drawbridge?
- - - - - - - - -


Note that the examples don't include players saying "I Diplomacy!" or "I roll Perception ::clatter::" or anything to do with the numbers or mechanics on their character sheet until the DM has called for a roll. That's our style of game play in a nutshell when it comes to Ability Checks. It may not be how you play, but I hope you can at least see how it works for many of us.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I honestly don't know how to get you to understand that positioning matters (among other things), and that players don't just throw dice without being asked to.

and I don't understand how to tell you that the positioning is easy enough to get without additional information and the dice roll isn't (in may games anyway) rolled before the DM calls for it... normally its more 'investigate' and then the DM either says that they get it or to roll

 

[GMforPowergamers]

For me "I search the door for traps..." And "I investigate the door..." Are synonymous in a game of 5e. Both convey they exact same request.

Now, I would ask that the player not roll for the check unless asked. Certainly not right after declaring their action. Mainly because, If all the players did that without being promoted, it could easily dissolve into a confusing, hard to follow mess.

yeah that adds up to my play and run experience.

also a big reason to not roll is we are often in the ball park of what skill but not always 100%. Sometimes I will see someone ask for acrobatics, or perception but will then have the DM correct to athletics or investigation.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I mean, it is part of the basic play loop right there in the How to Play section (PHB p6):

yup same play loop (although it's a word set I don't use often) I use... I just don't care what words you use.

- - - - - - - -
2. The players describe what they want to do.

you do get that the argument isn't "players don't have to say what they do" the argument is "is the name of the skill enough in context to continue play"

Sometimes one player speaks for the whole party, saying, "We'll take the east door," for example. Other times, different adventurers do different things: one adventurer might search a treasure chest while a second examines an esoteric symbol engraved on a wall and a third keeps watch for monsters. The players don't need to take turns, but the DM listens to every player and decides how to resolve those actions.

yup... and investigate, perceptions, and persuasion or in my games case an old joke of 'diplomancy' will do just fine to describe what you are doing as long as the words make sense in context

up thread I gave an example of someone wanting to seduce and the DM being confused cause they were talking about a door... but the player said they were not stupid they wanted to seduce the succubus prisoner they had... and the DM said that was no less stupid but go for it.

Note that the examples don't include players saying "I Diplomacy!" or "I roll Perception ::clatter::" or anything to do with the numbers or mechanics on their character sheet until the DM has called for a roll. That's our style of game play in a nutshell when it comes to Ability Checks. It may not be how you play, but I hope you can at least see how it works for many of us.

so you believe that the example of play is the excusive list of how to describe what your character is doing? that is the strangest argument yet...

again no one is arguing the player doesn't have to communicate intent... just that what ever words they choose to use as long as it is understood by both parties it DOESN'T matter what words they use.

 

[Umbran]

I did actually. Twice.

But ultimately, I believe in your ability to figure that out for yourself. If you can engage in a conversation over the last 653 posts and if my nephew can describe looking under beds and in closets to check for monsters, then you can surely describe a simple statement of goal and approach. I know you can do it.

Mod Note:
Comparing people to your nephew is making this personal and insulting, and pretty much making sure that conflict will continue.

Please stop that. Treat people better.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

yup same play loop (although it's a word set I don't use often) I use... I just don't care what words you use.

you do get that the argument isn't "players don't have to say what they do" the argument is "is the name of the skill enough in context to continue play"

Yes. I get that it works for your table. For me, players describing what they want to do involves more than stating a skill - and my point is that the examples of play support that the player should do more than just state a skill when describing what they want their character to do.

yup... and investigate, perceptions, and persuasion or in my games case an old joke of 'diplomancy' will do just fine to describe what you are doing as long as the words make sense in context

Sure - for your table, that works.

up thread I gave an example of someone wanting to seduce and the DM being confused cause they were talking about a door... but the player said they were not stupid they wanted to seduce the succubus prisoner they had... and the DM said that was no less stupid but go for it.

so you believe that the example of play is the excusive list of how to describe what your character is doing? that is the strangest argument yet...

Of course not. That is a faulty conclusion to draw from what I've said.

again no one is arguing the player doesn't have to communicate intent... just that what ever words they choose to use as long as it is understood by both parties it DOESN'T matter what words they use.

I get it.
For your table, you are ok with the DM making deductions about intent based on a player simply invoking a skill in the context of a scene.

Do you get this, though?
For my table, reasonable specificity by the player is required so the DM doesn't need to make such deductions.

 

[Charlaquin]

again no one is arguing the player doesn't have to communicate intent... just that what ever words they choose to use as long as it is understood by both parties it DOESN'T matter what words they use.

That’s the key point of disagreement though. Nobody is saying they demand their players use specific words, they’re saying “A request to make a particular ability check does not make the player’s intent clear to me.”

 

[robus]

So your choices will have an impact. Maybe you will get advantage, or disadvantage, because you hit the right, or wrong, chord.

This an excellent point so, in case it hasn’t been asked already, for those that advocate for letting players just declare “I use X skill on Y“ how do you know whether it qualifies for advantage or disadvantage when the approach is unknown?