D&D 4E I miss 4E

[Zaukrie]

To somewhat agree with the OP, I miss:

Long dragon and dungeon articles that aren't crunch, that have story elements, and were not all chaos scar adventures made with dungeon tiles.

Books like Draconomicon, Demonicon, Underdark.

Adventures.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

Gotta say M, I'm totally ignoring Essentials, but I'm quite happy to have time to 'catch up' with the books I care about. It's like the opportunity ya get to complete your collection between edition changes, except there's no new edition to start the vicious consumer cycle again! Well, no new edition I care to own.

I see your point, and it's a good one, but I'm just not a spender. (Because I'm a dirty progressive socialist un-American middle class liberal.)

 

[MrMyth]

MrMyth, you are comparing apples and oranges here. The two lists are made up of completely different material: the former is comprised of new material (for 4E, at least), while the latter is largely rehashments of previously published 4E material. Actually, of the second list, only two--Mordenkainen's and Heroes of Shadow are new material, and both don't come at the very end of the period.

Except that we've previously seen plenty of other products along those same lines. Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Forgotten Kingdoms isn't any worse than Martial Power and Divine Power.

We have new options for existing players, in those books - plus Mordenkainen's, plus Heroes of Shadow. We might have some new monsters - or at least new approaches with monsters - in the Monster Vault.

I'm guessing that WotC feels those will provide some content to many existing players while still allowing them to have this period focus on this new line-up. Now, that doesn't seem to be the case in your book (and, honestly, is pretty close to the case for me.) But sometimes WotC can't cater to everyone. I don't think that they are letting anyone down here, with these specific six months, any more than they are letting down Eberron players because they don't have a continual line-up of Eberron setting books.

In short, "WotC not pleasing everyone" isn't a new thing, and I don't see any abrupt change in their behavior here. If this isn't a release schedule you are a fan of, that's one thing. But there seems a level of specific bias here to declare this material simply a rehashing of old content, when it is not far off from Martial Power and Divine Power and similar books - or, even more, to specifically ignore something like Heroes of Shadow simply because it is in paperback format.

 

[Mercurius]

Except that we've previously seen plenty of other products along those same lines. Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Forgotten Kingdoms isn't any worse than Martial Power and Divine Power.

How so? The Power books (none of which I own, btw) focus on new material, new options for characters. But the Heroes books are Essentialized versions of previously released classes. Sure, there are new options, especially in the form of new builds, but the main purpose of these books--according to what WotC has said--is to bring in new players by providing an easier entry point. In other words, the Essentials stuff is a couple steps removed from the Power books in terms of new material.

It is really a matter of degree in terms of "newness" of a book: From entirely new material on one end of the spectrum to a reprinting of the same book in different format with little to no adjustments. The bottom line for me is that the Essentials line, by and large, is too far into the latter end of the spectrum to make it worth my while, and it is mildly disappointing in that I like getting a new D&D book once or twice a month.

We have new options for existing players, in those books - plus Mordenkainen's, plus Heroes of Shadow. We might have some new monsters - or at least new approaches with monsters - in the Monster Vault.

Right. But "new approaches with monsters" is not exactly the same thing as new monsters, is it? The Monster Vault, btw, is still on my "maybe to buy" list. I'm going to wait and see what people say before canceling my pre-order (which I just did for HotFK and The DM's Kit).

I'm guessing that WotC feels those will provide some content to many existing players while still allowing them to have this period focus on this new line-up. Now, that doesn't seem to be the case in your book (and, honestly, is pretty close to the case for me.) But sometimes WotC can't cater to everyone. I don't think that they are letting anyone down here, with these specific six months, any more than they are letting down Eberron players because they don't have a continual line-up of Eberron setting books.

There is a big difference between not offering new material to a very specific and relatively small sub-section of the D&D populace and not providing new material for anyone who doesn't want a new entry point into the game.

Furthermore, it is seven months, not six--but that's a minor quibble .

In short, "WotC not pleasing everyone" isn't a new thing, and I don't see any abrupt change in their behavior here. If this isn't a release schedule you are a fan of, that's one thing. But there seems a level of specific bias here to declare this material simply a rehashing of old content, when it is not far off from Martial Power and Divine Power and similar books - or, even more, to specifically ignore something like Heroes of Shadow simply because it is in paperback format.

I have not ignored Heroes of Shadow; in fact, I have used it as one of the bookends of the seven month dry spell--from Psionic Power and the Dark Sun books in August to Heroes of Shadow in March. The eight month period is between hardcovers, with Mordenkainen's in April.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "level of specific bias." If I said that Essentials was "simply a rehashing of old content" I should have said "mainly," which is, I think, what I did say--and what I mean. Even WotC has said as much. And yes, I recognize that there is some new material, but it is not a lot and it is mixed in with a lot of revised/reformatted/rehashed versions of old material. This means that someone such as myself, who wants the new material but not the old, has to either buy hundreds of dollars of new books or pay for a month or two of DDI to get updates (if and when they come out).

But it isn't that big of a deal, really. I can spend my RPG budget elsewhere and flesh out other aspects of my collection. Now if only I can find an affordable copy of Stars Wars Saga Edition...

 

[Derulbaskul]

(snip) Long dragon and dungeon articles that aren't crunch, that have story elements, and were not all chaos scar adventures made with dungeon tiles.

Books like Draconomicon, Demonicon, Underdark.

Adventures.

Much the same as you, I miss Dungeon adventures that are more than just three encounters and some tiles. More precisely, I miss the Dungeon adventures that appeared under Paizo's excellent stewardship in the 3.5E years. Three delves a month just doesn't cut it.

I also miss books that are more than just a 4.5E updating of some classes. I want my Underdark et al. More precisely, I want a Feywild-focussed book and Far Realms-focussed book, in that order.

Adventures. Oh how I wish that WotC were able to publish good adventures again. Slaying Stone and Stonefang Pass were both good so, now that they're back on track with adventures (although the Dark Sun one sucked: Bruce Cordell really has lost his mojo) I would like to see more.

 

[eamon]

I miss 4E too. That's why I'm going to play it tonight!

 

[MrMyth]

How so? The Power books (none of which I own, btw) focus on new material, new options for characters. But the Heroes books are Essentialized versions of previously released classes. Sure, there are new options, especially in the form of new builds, but the main purpose of these books--according to what WotC has said--is to bring in new players by providing an easier entry point. In other words, the Essentials stuff is a couple steps removed from the Power books in terms of new material.

Yeah, that is the primary purpose. But to existing players, they offer new builds for various classes.

You've got one of two ways to look at it. Either these new builds are the equivalent of the new builds offered in Martial Power, or they are the equivalent of new classes as found in PHB2, etc.

Either way, that is absolutely new content.

Heroes of Legend? It won't be. That is the book that, as I understand it, is primarily reprinting new material. And the other Heroes books have a bit of that with reprinted feats and items, yes.

But each one presents a number of new builds or classes (depending on how you want to look at it), and I just can't see any reasonable interpretation of that content which involves dismissing it as simply reprinting of existing content.

Right. But "new approaches with monsters" is not exactly the same thing as new monsters, is it? The Monster Vault, btw, is still on my "maybe to buy" list. I'm going to wait and see what people say before canceling my pre-order (which I just did for HotFK and The DM's Kit).

Yeah, not sure yet on Monster Vault. It had originally sounded like we'd be seeing new versions of existing monsters so that we could have "MM3 math" variants of classic monsters that supplement prior material without replacing it. Then they chose a terrible preview that had boring carrion crawlers nearly identical to the previous ones. So... until we know more, hard to say anything for sure. I'm hoping the carrion crawlers were a fluke and they'll hold to what was earlier promised about the product.

There is a big difference between not offering new material to a very specific and relatively small sub-section of the D&D populace and not providing new material for anyone who doesn't want a new entry point into the game.

I don't know about that. I know players who pretty much just stick to the 'core classes'. I see them just as likely to bemoan a dry spell between Martial Power 2 and Heroes of the Fallen Lands - they don't need PHB3, Psionic stuff, DM content or Dark Sun. Are they as large a group as those who are not interested in Essentials? Certainly not... but I think there are a lot of similar groups out there.

In this case, yes, WotC is deciding to have a period focusing on new players. They have still tried to include content in that period that will appeal to existing players, and I think many will still pick up such content. I could be wrong - your feelings on this might be widespread and vast, and WotC will take a huge hit by doing so. But... I've got a suspicion that isn't the case.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "level of specific bias." If I said that Essentials was "simply a rehashing of old content" I should have said "mainly," which is, I think, what I did say--and what I mean. Even WotC has said as much. And yes, I recognize that there is some new material, but it is not a lot and it is mixed in with a lot of revised/reformatted/rehashed versions of old material. This means that someone such as myself, who wants the new material but not the old, has to either buy hundreds of dollars of new books or pay for a month or two of DDI to get updates (if and when they come out).

Hundreds of dollars? $40 for Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Forgotten Kingdoms. Maybe also the Monster Vault - those are the products that have some amount of new content along some amount of old content. And then Heroes of Shadow, which should be entirely new content.

And let's look at that actual price tag. Heroes of the Fallen Lands offers 4 classes that feature 5 new builds, and some new feats. Alongside it is some older feats and items. It is certainly less content than one might find in Martial Power. On the other hand... it's 2/3 the cost.

If you don't want the content, that is fine. But that is a different thing than that content not being there.

 

[fanboy2000]

How so? The Power books (none of which I own, btw) focus on new material, new options for characters. But the Heroes books are Essentialized versions of previously released classes.

The Power books are one sidebar per class away from being PHBs. They seem purposefully designed so that people can play using only powers and feats from their chosen Power book.

For example the very first Power book, Martial Power, included a new class build for the Ranger, the Beastmaster. If it has included the sidebar that tells the player the classes hp, proficiencies, defense bonuses, etc... one could pick up pick-up the Martial Power book and only use that book to create a PC. If you wanted to you could call the Beastmaster Ranger a "Powerized" version of a previously released class.

But no one does.

 

[Mercurius]

But each one presents a number of new builds or classes (depending on how you want to look at it), and I just can't see any reasonable interpretation of that content which involves dismissing it as simply reprinting of existing content.

But I'm not saying that it is simply reprinting old material - and I already corrected you on that. I am saying that it is mainly reformatting, repackaging, and rehashing old material (which is also different from "reprinting"). There is a big difference between simply, which means only, and mainly, which means "for the most part, but not entirely."

Regardless of to what degree Essentials actually provides new material, from what I've seen so far it is not enough for me to buy everything, and it is also not enough for me to not feel disappointed in WotC's output over the 7-8 month period in question because not only is there a relatively small amount of actually new material, but it is included in reformatting of old material, and it is almost entirely new "crunch" with little to no new "fluff."

To put it another way, let's say that 4E books pre-Essentials have been of three basic kinds:

1) Core books and their expansions (PHB 1-3, DMG 1-2, MM 1-3)
2) Crunch-centered supplements (The Power books; Player's Guides)
3) Fluff-centered supplments (Campaign settings and theme books, e.g. Demonomicon, planar books, etc)

I buy all of 1 and 3 and almost none of 2 but instead get occasional DDI updates. During the 7-8 month period in question, there are no books in the 3rd category, with lots of books that re-format the 1st and offer bits of the 2nd. So the new material that is being offered is A) Integrated with a lot of old material that I already have, and B) Of the crunch-centric variety that is of less interest to me and that I can get through DDI.

Again, I'm not saying that this is "wrong" or that WotC is evil for not providing me with what I want, but it is a pretty significant gap in their publication schedule with a rather narrow variety of books being presented.

In this case, yes, WotC is deciding to have a period focusing on new players. They have still tried to include content in that period that will appeal to existing players, and I think many will still pick up such content. I could be wrong - your feelings on this might be widespread and vast, and WotC will take a huge hit by doing so. But... I've got a suspicion that isn't the case.

I think my feelings are in the minority, although maybe a significantly sized minority. To be honest I am surprised at how many people seem to be taking to Essentials whole-heartedly.

Hundreds of dollars? $40 for Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Forgotten Kingdoms. Maybe also the Monster Vault - those are the products that have some amount of new content along some amount of old content. And then Heroes of Shadow, which should be entirely new content.

And let's look at that actual price tag. Heroes of the Fallen Lands offers 4 classes that feature 5 new builds, and some new feats. Alongside it is some older feats and items. It is certainly less content than one might find in Martial Power. On the other hand... it's 2/3 the cost.

If you don't want the content, that is fine. But that is a different thing than that content not being there.

Again, I'm not saying that new content is not there but that A) it is mixed in with a lot (more, really) old content that I'm not interested in re-purchasing, and B) it is of a narrow variety without any "fluff-centered" products.

As for the price, WotC has effectively split one $35 hardcover (PHB) into three $20 softcovers (the two Heroes books and the Rules Compendium). That's $60 to just get the Essentialized versions of the material in the PHB, $80 if you include the Class Compendium.

At this point the only Essentials product that I feel is worth my money is the Rules Compendium, because it is a nice table reference. I may also pick up the Monster Vault and, despite my misgivings with the format and my wish for a revised PHB, I am curious about the Class Compendium. But for me regular purchasing of WotC D&D books won't start up again until Heroes of Shadow.

 

[Mercurius]

But each one presents a number of new builds or classes (depending on how you want to look at it), and I just can't see any reasonable interpretation of that content which involves dismissing it as simply reprinting of existing content.

But I'm not saying that it is simply reprinting old material - and I already corrected you on that. I am saying that it is mainly reformatting, repackaging, and rehashing old material (which is also different from "reprinting"). There is a big difference between simply, which means only, and mainly, which means "for the most part, but not entirely."

Regardless of to what degree Essentials actually provides new material, from what I've seen so far it is not enough for me to buy everything, and it is also not enough for me to not feel disappointed in WotC's output over the 7-8 month period in question because not only is there a relatively small amount of actually new material, but it is included in reformatting of old material, and it is almost entirely new "crunch" with little to no new "fluff."

To put it another way, let's say that 4E books pre-Essentials have been of three basic kinds:

1) Core books and their expansions (PHB 1-3, DMG 1-2, MM 1-3)
2) Crunch-centered supplements (The Power books; Player's Guides)
3) Fluff-centered supplments (Campaign settings and theme books, e.g. Demonomicon, planar books, etc)

I buy all of 1 and 3 and almost none of 2 but instead get occasional DDI updates. During the 7-8 month period in question, there are no books in the 3rd category, with lots of books that re-format the 1st and offer bits of the 2nd. So the new material that is being offered is A) Integrated with a lot of old material that I already have, and B) Of the crunch-centric variety that is of less interest to me and that I can get through DDI.

Again, I'm not saying that this is "wrong" or that WotC is evil for not providing me with what I want, but it is a pretty significant gap in their publication schedule with a rather narrow variety of books being presented.

In this case, yes, WotC is deciding to have a period focusing on new players. They have still tried to include content in that period that will appeal to existing players, and I think many will still pick up such content. I could be wrong - your feelings on this might be widespread and vast, and WotC will take a huge hit by doing so. But... I've got a suspicion that isn't the case.

I think my feelings are in the minority, although maybe a significantly sized minority. To be honest I am surprised at how many people seem to be taking to Essentials whole-heartedly.

Hundreds of dollars? $40 for Heroes of the Fallen Lands and Forgotten Kingdoms. Maybe also the Monster Vault - those are the products that have some amount of new content along some amount of old content. And then Heroes of Shadow, which should be entirely new content.

And let's look at that actual price tag. Heroes of the Fallen Lands offers 4 classes that feature 5 new builds, and some new feats. Alongside it is some older feats and items. It is certainly less content than one might find in Martial Power. On the other hand... it's 2/3 the cost.

If you don't want the content, that is fine. But that is a different thing than that content not being there.

Again, I'm not saying that new content is not there but that A) it is mixed in with a lot (more, really) old content that I'm not interested in re-purchasing, and B) it is of a narrow variety without any "fluff-centered" products.

As for the price, WotC has effectively split one $35 hardcover (PHB) into three $20 softcovers (the two Heroes books and the Rules Compendium). That's $60 to just get the Essentialized versions of the material in the PHB, $80 if you include the Class Compendium.

At this point the only Essentials product that I feel is worth my money is the Rules Compendium, because it is a nice table reference. I may also pick up the Monster Vault and, despite my misgivings with the format and my wish for a revised PHB, I am curious about the Class Compendium. But for me regular purchasing of WotC D&D books won't start up again until Heroes of Shadow.