D&D General "I roll Persuasion."

[Chaosmancer]

For me, the disconnect here is really that it's feasible to masterfully deceive someone without any "social combat" at all. Combat as-is exists as a stand-in to simulate actually stabbing and battering another being, whereas I can run a succubus that plays PCs against each other unassisted, maybe with a Deception roll now and again if her behavior ever comes under any serious scrutiny.

Sure, but you don't need to use social combat all the time. We don't necessarily roll initiative when the PCs drink poisoned wine, we roll con saves, but those aren't solely combat based mechanics. You can still run that succubus the exact same way.

But then, when the players have a strong suspicion she is a succubus, but they don't want to just stab the woman whose been "helping" them, you could have this as an option for that confrontation. "you guys can engage in a social combat, giving you greater chances of success since it is more than a single roll, but if you fail, you guys accept she isn't a succubus."

And if one player raises a stink "NEVER! My character will NEVER believe she isn't a succubus no matter what the dice say!!" Then you can try and compromise with the player about what consequence they are willing to agree to, or have them sit out the social combat if they will agree to no reasonable consequences.

 

[Bill Zebub]

And if one player raises a stink "NEVER! My character will NEVER believe she isn't a succubus no matter what the dice say!!" Then you can try and compromise with the player about what consequence they are willing to agree to, or have them sit out the social combat if they will agree to no reasonable consequences.

Or decide on the fly that she's actually a princess deva, not a succubus.

"Why did you just flip from the back of the Monster Manual to the front?"
"No reason..."

 

[Chaosmancer]

Or decide on the fly that she's actually a princess deva, not a succubus.

"Why did you just flip from the back of the Monster Manual to the front?"
"No reason..."

Sure, could do that. I'd not want to do that, since the alteration of the game reality to that extent generally ruins what I was doing in the first place.

My main point is that since the system I'm picturing can only be initiated by the players, and gets buy in from the players on the consequences... the only time it "forces" someone is if they refuse to ever suffer any consequences. Heck, the consequences don't even HAVE to be mental. If you go around arguing with Kings and fail badly enough, you could get banished from the kingdom. No need to change your minds, because that wasn't what was going on. That's just the drum people are beating in the thread to declare social combat a non-starter.

 

[Bill Zebub]

My main point is that since the system I'm picturing can only be initiated by the players, and gets buy in from the players on the consequences... the only time it "forces" someone is if they refuse to ever suffer any consequences. Heck, the consequences don't even HAVE to be mental. If you go around arguing with Kings and fail badly enough, you could get banished from the kingdom. No need to change your minds, because that wasn't what was going on. That's just the drum people are beating in the thread to declare social combat a non-starter.

I definitely agree that half of the problem with “skill use” (/wince) is absence of consequences.

 

[Maxperson]

Will you ever help someone recover stolen property?

No way. That's a good way to get shot and it's the job of the police.

 

[Maxperson]

I don’t think that you can categorically state that you cannot be tricked into stealing anything. The nature of being tricked into something is that what you think you are doing is not what you are actually doing.

Like, your friend asks you to help his cousin move. He even offers to pay you for pizza afterwards. You do so, but it turns out that it wasn’t the cousin’s house. You were just tricked into stealing.

If my cousin is so distant that I don't know where he lives, he probably isn't asking me and even if he does, I'm not helping him move.

 

[FrozenNorth]

If my cousin is so distant that I don't know where he lives, he probably isn't asking me and even if he does, I'm not helping him move.

I specified friend’s cousin, not yours. And your friend asked, not the cousin.

 

[Umbran]

No way. That's a good way to get shot and it's the job of the police.

Our fantasy worlds don't typically have police, though.

Plus... I guess you figure grifters are complete idiots that ask you to do things that are outside your skillset.

 

[Maxperson]

I specified friend’s cousin, not yours. And your friend asked, not the cousin.

Oh. I misread that. No, I wouldn't help a friend's cousin. If I know someone well I will help them. Otherwise they can ask someone that they do know well.

 

[Maxperson]

Our fantasy worlds don't typically have police, though.

Plus... I guess you figure grifters are complete idiots that ask you to do things that are outside your skillset.

I was just answering your question. "Will you ever help someone recover stolen property?"

If you were talking about my characters, I've already said that they could be tricked into something, but that's not a social combat. That's the DM having an NPC lie to me and then me not picking up on it. Alternatively, sometimes I'm playing a low wisdom character and even if I pick up on a lie personally, I'll have my PC fall for it.