D&D 5E I want D&D Next to be a new edition, not just an improved version of Edition X

[Bedrockgames]

There is another thing to consider here. This is purely speculation based on my own experience, but I am not convinced that the main barriers to growing the hobby are rules systems or a lack of tech supplements (character generators, map generators, etc have been available widely for free or at low cost for some time). When I started, rules were the last thing on my mind. The mechanics of the rpg i first played never entered into my judgment of the experience. Rules are important but it isn't like there aren't simple, streamlined games that wont give non gamers a hard time.

The biggest hurdle is the nature of the hobby itself. You can surround D&D in tech, modern trends, etc but at the end of the day it is a imaginative role playing game and it has always been a tough sell for that reason. Some people (like myself) found themselves sucked into experience the moment they rolled up their first character, others cant get into it for a variety of reasons. So I am not sure how much role playing games can grow beyond their natural base without changing their essential nature or without major cultural changes that make people more comfortable with the rpg experience. Peoplecan point to the popularity of WoW, but I would argue WoW is a fundamentally different experience than something like D&D.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

There is another thing to consider here. This is purely speculation based on my own experience, but I am not convinced that the main barriers to growing the hobby are rules systems or a lack of tech supplements (character generators, map generators, etc have been available widely for free or at low cost for some time). When I started, rules were the last thing on my mind. The mechanics of the rpg i first played never entered into my judgment of the experience. Rules are important but it isn't like there aren't simple, streamlined games that wont give non gamers a hard time.

The biggest hurdle is the nature of the hobby itself. You can surround D&D in tech, modern trends, etc but at the end of the day it is a imaginative role playing game and it has always been a tough sell for that reason. Some people (like myself) found themselves sucked into experience the moment they rolled up their first character, others cant get into it for a variety of reasons. So I am not sure how much role playing games can grow beyond their natural base without changing their essential nature or without major cultural changes that make people more comfortable with the rpg experience. Peoplecan point to the popularity of WoW, but I would argue WoW is a fundamentally different experience than something like D&D.

Yeah, I pretty much agree. The ins and outs of game systems are basically important only to people who are enthusiasts.

I think what WotC has been doing, and presumably continues to do, is explore the essential nature of RPGs. What happens when you provide most of the material online in a subscription service for instance. What happens when you allow online play via a VTT? It seems to me that the creation of 4e was about having a set of rules that was well suited to those kinds of presentation (again they have stated this explicitly).

 

[Bedrockgames]

Yeah, I pretty much agree. The ins and outs of game systems are basically important only to people who are enthusiasts.

I think what WotC has been doing, and presumably continues to do, is explore the essential nature of RPGs. What happens when you provide most of the material online in a subscription service for instance. What happens when you allow online play via a VTT? It seems to me that the creation of 4e was about having a set of rules that was well suited to those kinds of presentation (again they have stated this explicitly).

The problem arises though that if you alter the nature of rpgs to suit a more mass market audience, you risk losing many gamers. If online support is purely supplemental to regular play it can work, but if you replace imaginaton with digital images, I think you will lose a lot of the base (At a certain point you are making a video game and not an rpg). I know in my case what attracted me to the hobby was the imagination component. I already had video games if I needed graphics and highly complex gameplay. Rpgs satisfied a completely different need for me.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

The problem arises though that if you alter the nature of rpgs to suit a more mass market audience, you risk losing many gamers. If online support is purely supplemental to regular play it can work, but if you replace imaginaton with digital images, I think you will lose a lot of the base (At a certain point you are making a video game and not an rpg). I know in my case what attracted me to the hobby was the imagination component. I already had video games if I needed graphics and highly complex gameplay. Rpgs satisfied a completely different need for me.

I don't think they are at all trying to replace imagination. It certainly doesn't seem to me that 4e for instance is less a game of imagination than other editions have been.

In a sense, yes, probably success means that things will change. It is the nature of life. All elements of culture change and evolve. It will not be exactly the same experience that they're selling. That seems inevitable. We can be the grumpy old men yelling "You kids get off my lawn and stop playing that awful noise!" or we can embrace the cool parts of the new and carry forward some of the essential parts of the old experience.

Basically that seems to me to be where WotC is. It is a new world out there that they're trying to engage with. The good thing is they have the resources to really experiment some, absorb some mistakes, perfect their approach, and keep going forward. At least up to a certain point. Again, going back is just mid-to-long-term a recipe for ending up in the dustbin of history. It might even be a more profitable niche for a while, but in the end a dead-end. I fear the rest of the RPG industry lacks the resources to do the same thing.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I don't think they are at all trying to replace imagination. It certainly doesn't seem to me that 4e for instance is less a game of imagination than other editions have been.

In a sense, yes, probably success means that things will change. It is the nature of life. All elements of culture change and evolve. It will not be exactly the same experience that they're selling. That seems inevitable. We can be the grumpy old men yelling "You kids get off my lawn and stop playing that awful noise!" or we can embrace the cool parts of the new and carry forward some of the essential parts of the old experience.

Basically that seems to me to be where WotC is. It is a new world out there that they're trying to engage with. The good thing is they have the resources to really experiment some, absorb some mistakes, perfect their approach, and keep going forward. At least up to a certain point. Again, going back is just mid-to-long-term a recipe for ending up in the dustbin of history. It might even be a more profitable niche for a while, but in the end a dead-end. I fear the rest of the RPG industry lacks the resources to do the same thing.

I disagree with your conclusions on a number of fronts. But this is all highly speculative so debate probably won't get us very far. I ted to doubt those who believe the hobby is shrinking ir that it has been on a continuous decline since the 80s. IMO, it has peaks and valleys and presently may be in the later. But with 3e we had a huge boom in both new blood and a return of lapsed players. I saw far more new players come to the hobby in 200-2003 than i did with 4e, so i really dont see that WOTC strategy as you describe it has worked. I also think turning rpgs into something other than roleplaying games is a much surer way to hit the dustbin of history than staying true to what table top rpgs are. As i said, imagination is an essential quality of rpgs. Start replacing imagination with digital graphics and you lose the thing that attracts people to the hobby (aferall, why not just play a multiplayer video game instead). I just dont see why you would ignore the preferences of people who are currently playing rpgs in order to expand the hobby. It isn't like there ave not been efforts to make D&D mainstream before. Much better to keep ding what we do well and wait for the culture to come to us, than to radically redefine D&D to the point that the current base doesn't enjoy it. If WOTC wants a big market they can always make an multi player online game...but that isn't D&D.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I disagree with your conclusions on a number of fronts. But this is all highly speculative so debate probably won't get us very far. I ted to doubt those who believe the hobby is shrinking ir that it has been on a continuous decline since the 80s. IMO, it has peaks and valleys and presently may be in the later. But with 3e we had a huge boom in both new blood and a return of lapsed players. I saw far more new players come to the hobby in 200-2003 than i did with 4e, so i really dont see that WOTC strategy as you describe it has worked. I also think turning rpgs into something other than roleplaying games is a much surer way to hit the dustbin of history than staying true to what table top rpgs are. As i said, imagination is an essential quality of rpgs. Start replacing imagination with digital graphics and you lose the thing that attracts people to the hobby (aferall, why not just play a multiplayer video game instead). I just dont see why you would ignore the preferences of people who are currently playing rpgs in order to expand the hobby. It isn't like there ave not been efforts to make D&D mainstream before. Much better to keep ding what we do well and wait for the culture to come to us, than to radically redefine D&D to the point that the current base doesn't enjoy it. If WOTC wants a big market they can always make an multi player online game...but that isn't D&D.

I don't know why you assume that just because people play online would automatically make the game into a 'multi-player online game'. There's a HUGE difference between playing D&D on a VTT and playing a CRPG or an MMO. They aren't even remotely similar experiences. I've never been that big on computer 'RPGs' (there's really little RP there, though I guess in some sense there is in an MMO, but only with other players). A game with DM and open-ended rules is just totally different. Notice WotC has never in any way shape or form messed with that aspect of D&D, nor are they likely to. THAT is IMHO the core aspect of the game. All else is in support of that.

Nor do 'digital graphics' replace imagination AT ALL in that type of game, trust me. It is just not even a concern. I'm describing things and the players are describing things, and if we have a digital battle map and book keeping macros all that does is free up time and energy to think about the fun stuff.

Of course this isn't the only way that D&D can evolve. It might not even go that way in the long run. Still, being able to use DDI type tools and share stuff easily with other users, have tools for making maps, writing and organizing adventures and settings, and curating and finding the best content have HUGE potential. Those things are easier and work better when the game is designed to easily work with them.

It isn't like I believe 4e is even close to the end result of all this either. It is just an evolutionary step on the way. Either 5e can take another step or... Surely we DO want as many people to want to play it as possible, but there are just going to be things that are changed so that they facilitate the game thriving in the modern world. It simply isn't going to do that otherwise. You can say that D&D is just on a downcycle now, which may be partly true, but go back and look at how different the industry was in the early 80's and how much more D&D fit in, to the extent that it was really out there in a much bigger way than it is now. You don't have to believe me, go talk to guys like Ryan Dancy, who knows 10,000x more than I ever will about the game industry, probably more than everyone else here combined, and he'll tell you pretty much the same thing.